148 Independant Reconnaisance Corps/46th Recon Regiment/Jack Topple

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by georgedorrian, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Hello all, I have recently come across details of a relative, Jack Topple who I understand served in the 46th Reconnaisance Regiment during World War Two, I don't have much informtion on him but I understand prior to this he was with the 148 Independant Reconnaisance Corps, who were based at Kilwaughter Castle near Larne in Northern Ireland during part of 1941. I can find no other references to this unit anywhere until a reference appeared linking him to the RAC, possibly in Dusseldorf post 1945. Not sure if anyone would be able to help me with any material on him or these units but I would grateful for anything out there. Many thanks, George
     
  2. dave3164

    dave3164 @davidcarter1978

    Hi George,

    According to the information I have in front of me, the 148 Independant Reconnaissance Squadron became the 49th (West Riding) Reconnaissance Regiment.

    The Regiment was formed in September 1942 from the 29th and 148th Independant Reconnaissance Sqns. The regiment fought in the invasion of Normandy and throughout the campaign in North West Europe.

    Good starting points for research on the Reconnaissance Corps in general would be an Osprey Publishing book called The British Reconnaissance Corps in World War II and Only the Enemy in Front published by Spellmount Publishing, both books written by Richard Doherty.

    The Tank Museum in Bovington also hold both the Regimental History and Transcribed War Diary for this regiment and will copy both for about £40.
     
  3. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Dave,

    thanks for this. ordered these books. perhaps not surprising but the whole training period at Kilwaughter even amongst locals in northern ireland appears to be shrouded in mystery. i think the americans occupied the castle later in the war and thuis appears to be better recorded but the early war period seems to largely undocumented.

    George
     
  4. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    George, Welcome to the forum. Do you have any more information on Jack? Have you got Jack's Army Records? The NOK would have to apply if you are not the NOK.

    New link for obtaining service records info pasted below.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...to-information



    Cheers
    Paul
     
  5. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Paul,

    thanks for coming back to me, unfortunately i can't get access his army record for a few reasons. what I do know is that the Army List 1942 indicates he was granted an emergency commission as 2nd Lieutenant and a War Substantive Lieutenant on the 12th April 1942. we know he was transferred to the 46th Reconnaisance Regiment. A historian recently came across a newspaper article in Seaford which indicated he died in 1958, mentioning Dusseldorf (checking seems to confirm he didn't die in the uk), although there are seem to some inaccuracies in the report as it indicates he served with the RAMC whereas I think it was the RAC, and his age as listed doesn't match with his birth certificate.

    thanks
    George
     
  6. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    George, Below is from This Band of Brothers.

    THE 46TH RECONNAISSANCE REGIMENT


    The Regiment was formed in July, 1941, from the 23rd Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, and from the 137th, 138th and 139th Brigade Anti-Tank Companies. The 46th was early on the scene in Tunisia, fought subsequently in the Salerno landing, and in the Italian campaign up to the Gothic Line. Soon after Christmas, 1944, the Regiment moved to Greece. In the following Spring the 46th Regiment was en route back for the River Po Line when the enemy surrender came in Italy on May the 2nd.

    Commanding Officers of the Regiment were: Lt-Col. C. J. Luce, Lt-Col. F. H. Cotton, M.B.E.,* Lt-Col. J. H. C. Preen, O.B.E.,* Major E. B. Barrass.


    Cheers
    Paul
     
  7. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Hi, further to my earlier posts searching for Jack Topple, my research led me to the 46th reconnaisance regiment early in 1942. However I have now uncovered a record in the London Gazette which simply states he was' removed from the army' in December 1942. He then vanishes until a record of him receiving a medal and mention in dispatches with the RAMC in Palestine around 1946/47.

    I am wondering if the 'removal from the army' in 1942 has any particular meaning that someone could help me with. Given his later association with the RAMC until his death in Germany in 1968, he clearly returned to the army so is there a meaning to this beyond the obvious 'got threw out'. Many thanks, George.
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    His service records should answer that. Did you get any further regarding proof of death?
     
  9. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Thanks for the reply, regarding proof of death I found that he died on 8th March 1968 at Rheindahlen, Germany, where he is now buried. With this I now have the death certificate and the local British Legion were very kind in photographing his plot for me. George. His records are proving problematic in sourcing which is why I am hoping there might be an alternative source of explanation.

    George
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The only other thing that springs to mind is a conscious objector but I don't know who that would work in WW2 plus any suggestions are just guess work.

    Assuming you have a date of birth, full name along with the proof of death which you do have can I ask whats the problem with his service records?
     
  11. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    George could you post a photo of his grave if possible

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  12. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    I have been trying to upload photo without success, hoping a work colleague can assist me on Monday.


    There is quite a waiting list at the minute on getting files which is frustrating.

    One of the mysteries to overcome are differences in rank and number; the first reference to him after the 1942 London gazzette is receiving a 'General Service Medal and mention in dispatches' is WO JC Topple RAMC 15001292.


    The mention is made on 7th January 1949 and says the King has been graciously pleased to approve that the following be mentioned in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in Palestine during the period 27th September 1946 and 26th March 1947.


    However the headstone, dated in 1968 refers to Sargeant JC Topple, RAMC, 23498018. Birth dates on the headstone and other links definitely suggest the two are one and the same person and there may be a reason for the difference in numbers that someone with more knowledge of these things can easily explain.


    Going back to the 148th/46th Recon Regiment his number then was 182441.


    George.
     
  13. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    photo attached on the Topple grave in Rheindahlen,
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  15. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    this should be better now
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    George thanks for posting the photo

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  17. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Its been quite a while since I posted and in meantime I have obtained Jack's army service records. I was surprised to learn he appears to have served in Recon for only a very short period before leaving for India in mid 1942 and is recorded as 'been removed from the Army in December 1942' although it appears he went out to India before this time and reenlisted with the Warwickshires out there.

    From 1945 onwards he served across different spheres with the RAMC including Malaya, Palestine, West Germany and East Africa.

    A very complicated service history (not helped by seemingly using various Christain names and an 'interesting' personal life'), and I am hoping someone may have advice on tracking down British (army etc) records, in particular Palestine 1945-50 and India, from the mid thirties until mid forties?.

    Many thanks

    George
     
  18. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    George thanks for the update. If you could post scans of his Records it could assist you in finding out more information.

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  19. georgedorrian

    georgedorrian Junior Member

    Thanks Paul,

    I will try to get some scanned then though unfortunately they have them all on A3 size paper. One of the intersting notes is in his medal awards, which says;

    GENERAL SERVICE MEDAL 1918 - 1962, Bar Palestine 1945 - 48 to Warrant Officer J. C. Topple, Royal Army Medical Corps, who was Mentioned in Despatches in 1949 for service in Palestine
    General Service Medal 1918 - 1962 with Mention in Despatches Oakleaf
    Bar: Palestine 1945 - 48
    15001292 W.O.CL.2 J. C. TOPPLE. R. A. M. C.
    M.I.D. LG: 7/1/1949. The King has been graciously pleased to approve that the following be Mentioned in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in Palestine during the period 27th September 1946 to 26th March 1947.
     
  20. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Attached Files:

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