1456956 Richard HAZELL, 65th (Norfolk Yeomanry) Anti-Tank Regiment, RA

I have found a lot of posts on the topic by Brian on this website: https://www.british-genealogy.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-19687.html

Here is one of the questions and his answer. You'll see the two dates 26 October and 14 November crop up:


Hi - I have a similar anomaly with some research I am doing. An Alfred Edward Orton is listed on the Army Roll of Honour as having died on October 26 1942. However, on the Commomwealth Graves site he is listed as having died on November 14 1942, and is commemorated on the El Alamein Memorial. His nephew, with whom I am co-operating, says there was a family legend that he had been taken prisoner and was being transported when the ship was sunk by a British submarine and he was lost. Does anybody have a listing of those who were lost when the SS Scillin was sunk, or know where I can find such a list ?
Regards
David J Brown

Hello David,
There has been no casualty list produced by either the M.O.D. or the Italians.
The 26th of October originally given was the date he left Benghazi by road to a camp in Tripoli. Before the records were corrected his D.O.D. was given as 26/10/42 - 14/11/42. The problem came when the 1009 P.O.W. who left Benghazi towards the end of October were taken to board the ship on the 13th November.
Boarding was stopped when 814 were on the ship which was grossly overloaded as she was only 1595 Tons. The other 195 were taken further down the Quay where two other ships were unloading. These prisoners boarded in the early hours of the 14th, about 15 or so hours after the Scillin had sailed.
There were 27 P.O.W. survivors from the Scillin who were picked up by the Submarine and taken to Malta.

In late 1944 a list of men who left Benghazi on the dates stated was given to the M.O.D. From this the names of survivors and those who were later Registered as P.O.W. it Italy by the Red Cross were deducted from that list. The Balance were then presumed to have died at Sea. Including my Father.

My Records show Gnr A.E.Orton 1100197 67th Medium Regiment R.A. did die on the S.S.Scillin.

A few years ago I passed on a List of men from the Regiment who had died on the Ship to two Ladies who were looking into the Regiment's WW2 Casualties. This together with War Diaries was put on display in the Ipswich Library where I believe all the research is now kept.

It would appear that Brian passed on the results of his research to the Regiments concerned (or their successors). Have you tried contacting the 65 Norfolk Regiment?
Edited:e-mail regimental.museum@norfolk.gov.uk

Vitellino

 

There are several men from the Coldstream Guards with DOD between 26/10/42 and 14/11/42 in this document -

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?attach...m-guards-roll-of-honour-1939-1945-pdf.110212/

taken from

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/2nd-3rd-coldstream-guards-roll-of-honour-awards-1939-46.49425/

Several contemporaries of my father are shown with similar “between” dates of death. When I discussed the roll of honour with my father he was aware that his friends had been killed when their POW ships had been sunk crossing the Mediterranean so the facts must not have been kept secret post war.


Steve

 

Hi

Here's what I could find on Bdr Hazell's and 65 AT Regt right up to his death.

Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942 on www.Findmypast.co.uk

States “Joined 1938 to Field Branch, died 26/10/42-14/11/42”

BRITISH ARTILLERY IN WORLD WAR 2 at British Artillery Regiments

65 Anti-Tank Regiment

UK 1939 - 18 Inf Div

HQ at Swaffham

257 Bty at Norwich and Wymondham

258 Bty at Norwich

259 Bty at Swaffham

260 Bty at King's Lynn

Source: Norfolk Yeomanry - Wikipedia

France 1939-40

50 Infantry Division

Source: 65 Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery, 1940

The 65th A/T Regiment (Norfolk Yeomanry) under Lt Col W N Arnold with 257th, 258th, 259th and 360th Batteries, sailed for France on the Ulster Monach on the 9th February 1940 and was to fight in the Arras counter-attack. At Arras, 260th battery formed part of the right hand column (of two) along with 7th Royal Tank Regiment, 8th Durham Light Infantry, 365th Battery and 92nd Field Regiment.

At 1400 hours 21st May the column was ordered to cross the Arras-Doullens road. First there was a fight by the Right Column to take Duisans, on the western outskirts of Arras, and 260th Anti-Tank Battery and two companies of 8th DLI were left to hold it and a number of prisoners.

65th Anti-Tank Regiment had heavy losses as it fell back through Popringhe where it amalgamated all that was left of 258th and 260th batteries. It acted as rearguard at Les Moeres leaving Captain J J Barclay forward with four guns at Le Doulen. It finally got away on the 31st and reformed at Chard and Somerset.

Original Source: The Years of Defeat 1939-41 by Farndale

UK 1940

50 Inf Div (Home Defence)

RHQ at Bridport, later at Child Okeford

257 Bty at Burton Bradstock, later at Durweston

258 Bty at West Bay, later at Swanage

259 Bty at Chideock, with detachments manning 3-pounders at Lyme Regis and Charmouth, 4-inch at Chesilton, and 12-pounder at Fleet

260 Bty at Bridport with detachments manning 4-inch guns at Burton Bradstock and East Bexington

Detachments of 63rd Medium Regt manning four static 6-pounders

While in Britain the division made good its losses with new recruits and convalescents, and was converted into a three brigade infantry division with the permanent addition, of the 69th Infantry Brigade group, at the end of June. This comprised the 5th East Yorkshire Regiment, 6th and 7th Green Howards with supporting artillery and engineers, from the now disbanded 23rd (Northumbrian) Division, which had been badly mauled in France. It became part of V Corps on anti-invasion duty, stationed initially in and to the West of Bournemouth.

Source 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division - Wikipedia

On 8 November the regiment was ordered to leave 50th Division and begin mobilisation for overseas service. The last of its new guns having been delivered by 1 December, the regiment proceeded to Swansea Docks and sailed for the Middle East on 18 December 1940.

Probably sailed on Winston Special (WS) Convoy 5A

More info here

WS (Winston Special) Convoys in WW2 - 1940 Sailings

N Africa February 1941 to July 1942

Arrived Suez (Port Tewfik) 16/02/41

North African campaign - Wikipedia

Tobruk (attached 22nd Guards Brigade) in May 1941

22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia

Battle of the Cauldron, May 1942

Battle of Gazala - Wikipedia

The Battle of Ruweisat Ridge, July 1942, (attached 16th Indian Motor Brigade)

First Battle of El Alamein - Wikipedia

Private Papers of Lieutenant Colonel M E Parker

Artillery Regiments Page

However, cannot find an 16th Indian Motor Brigade anywhere. May be a typo. Might be 161 Indian (Motor) Brigade, part of 10 Division.

161st Indian Infantry Brigade - Wikipedia

British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945 (WO 417) on Findmypast.co.uk

With 65 Anti-Tank Regiment

Casualty List #910 – 24/08/42

Reported missing on 22/07/42

Casualty List #1011 – 19/12/44

Status changed to “Prisoner of War (previously reported as missing)” 28/06/42

Casualty List #1373 – 19/02/44

Status changed to “Previously reported prisoner of war in Italian hands, now reported missing” Date Not Recorded (DNR)

Casualty List #1425 – 20/04/44

Status changed to “Previously reported missing, DNR, no presumed dead whilst in prisoner of war in Italian hands” – 26/10/42 to 14/11/42

Royal Artillery Other Ranks: casualty cards 1939-1947 on Findmypast.co.uk



Hope this helps

Gus

 

Hello Lindsay,

You will note from the Casualty Card (above) that Gus attached that it states Bmdr Hazell’s place of death was at sea, whilst a PoW of the Italians. It is looking more certain that he was killed in the Scillin incident.

As Vitellino suggests (above), I recommend that you contact the regimental museum of the 65th (Norfolk Yeomanry) Anti-Tank Regiment and ask them to help you confirm how Bmdr Hazell died. The reason for this is that it appears that Brian Sims passed details of those killed in the Scillin incident to their respective regimental museums.

Best,

Steve.

 

The other CWGC record is for a different Richard Hazell which took me down a blind alley at first. Our Richard Hazell isn't Norman!
Thanks Guys you're all brilliant!

 

Gus, you're a legend, thank you!

 

Great - glad you are sorted - I've been down a few blind alleys myself

TD

 

AMAZING! This is perfect Gus! I feel like you've found treasure for me!!!

 

Just a postscript regarding friendly fire accidents and cover-ups to protect ULTRA..

Like Bdr. Hazell, the men killed when the USAAF bombed the pow train at Allerona were described as Prisoner of War AND killed in action in their records. What a euphemism!!

Vitellino

 

Glad I could be of some help.

If you want any help with any others on the memorial just let me know.

I stand in front of same memorial every remembrance Sunday. So I would be very interested in what you are creating. So when you finish, can I get a copy?

Alternatively when the Blue Boar finally reopens buy me a beer.

Gus

 

You're a local man??? Can I pm you?

 

Yes I am.

Happy to PM.

Gus

 

Looking for something and came across this on another site I frequent quite often - the late Bill Rudds

A. By Sea | ANZAC POW Free Men in Europe

TD