1439124 Gunner George FOWLER, Royal Artillery

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Martin Fowler, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. Martin Fowler

    Martin Fowler Member

    Hello everyone!

    Gunner George Fowler 1439124

    I'm researching my grandfather's service and from his service records I've worked out which regiments be served with during ww2. He was transferred from the coastal artillery to the 20th Anti-Tank Regmt in Nov 1943 and served with them until he was transferred to the 176th Field Reg sometime between 11th July 1944 & Feb 1945. I think I read somewhere th 20th was in Dunblane, Scotland during his training period. He was in North West Europe from 3rd June 1944 (I know d-day was the 6th - but it's says Emb NWE 3/6/1944) to 11th July 1944; transferred to X(ii) list on 27th June and the Y list when he got back on 11th July. From my reading into the subject I think he joined a muster in late '43 to be trained in preparation for D-Day. I believe he would have been part of the crew of an M10. He would have been involved in various actions in and around Caen until the 27th. I know the 20th was part of 3rd (Br) Infantry division but I can't work out which part of the action he was involved in. Apart from the landings themselves I haven't yet been able to ascertain which named operations he was involved in and matching the date of his wounding (27th June) to an ongoing operation has eluded me so far. Any confirmations of the above info and any further infor would be much appreciated. Apart from visiting Kew to view the war diary of the 20th I can't think what else to try. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi Martin,

    Troops were moved into embarkation areas prior to the 6th and unable to contact the outside world. Perhaps that's what "Emb" references?

    I don't know much about the actions of the regiment in June/July '44 but I believe the M10s were in the 20th's sub-units as follows. This is taken from WD records from January 1945. If your father's records indicate his battery or troop then that would help confirm for you whether he was in an M10 or manning a 6-pounder.

    41 Battery: B troop (probably)
    45 Battery: I troop
    67 Battery: E troop
    101 Battery: O troop (probably)

    Patrick Delaforce's books are a bit dodgy but in "Monty's Iron Sides" (p64) he mentions an attack on Chateau de la Londe at 15:40 on 27 June by the South Lancs supported by "the divisional artillery", Staff Yeomanry Shermans and a troop of Churchill Crocodiles. Unclear from this if the divisional AT was involved or not, and not much detail provided.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  3. Martin Fowler

    Martin Fowler Member

    Thank you, Chris.
    I'm not sure which battery he was in. I've just had another look through his sevice records and could not see any reference to a specific battery number. I've attached the bits that mention the 20th a/tank regmt. Perhaps there is something in the abbreviations I'm missing.

    re embarkation. Yes I'm sure your right about 3-6th been spent in an embarkation area. Encyclopedia Brittanica has a map showing the invasion routes of the various groups making up the landing force. It shows 3rd British Inf. Division, which 20th Anti-tanks was part of, leaving from Newhaven so I'd guess they had a camp near there. https://cdn.britannica.com/55/47755-050-CA68C082/Normandy-Invasion-map-locator.jpg

    I will definitely have a look for the Delaforce reference, thanks.

    There is a site which mentions dates relevant to the war diary of the 20th Anti-Tank regmt. but the actual transcribed entries are behind a paywall. 20th Anti Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery in the Second World War 1939-1945 - The Wartime Memories Project -

    There are four dates from ^^^ relevant to my grandfather's time in the 20th -

    1st June 1944 Preparations
    23rd June 1944 Artillery Active
    25th June 1944 Shelling
    26th June 1944 Artillery Active
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I'm no expert in reading service, Martin, so I really can't help you there. But I can give you a bit more of the text from Delaforce's book.

    La Londe was reckoned to be the 'bloodiest square in Normandy'. The 192 Panzer Grenadiers, the HQ company of 22 Panzer Regiment, backed by a score of tanks, were determined to hold the salient of Le Landel, La Londe, Chateau de la Londe, and La Bijude. The GOC 3rd DIvision was equally determined to eliminate this salient - hence Operation Mitten. This was to be an 8 Brigade responsibility. The South Lancs would try a third time at 1530 hrs on 27 June, supported by the divisional artillery and Staffordshire Yeomanry Shermans and a troop of Crocodile flamethrowers, but dug-in Tigers and Mk IV tanks and conceealed MGs inflicted, again, very heavy casualties.
    Now, whether M10s were actually allocated to this or if "divisional artillery" just means a supporting barrage, I don't know.
     
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  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hope I'm not butting in here but it seems to me on the 27th June 1944 or just before, he was injured/wounded as he was put onto the xii list as below, this was followed by the y list

    THE X (ii) LIST comprises all ranks evacuated on medical grounds beyond RAP [Regimental Aid Post]. Personnel so evacuated cease to be on the effective strength of their units. Temporary or acting rank will be relinquished 28 days after being so transferred to X (ii) list. Personnel remain in X (ii) list until they are classified as fit for posting by NZ Reception Depot (when they are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps and marched out to the appropriate training depot), or until discharged by a medical unit direct to their original units. Personnel who, after evacuation beyond RAP are medically graded 1A or lower remain on X (ii) list until they are either (a) placed on NZ Roll, or (b) posted to a Base establishment, or (c) transferred to X (i) list at the Base. Personnel of HQs, or extra-regimental units, may as a matter of convenience be posted direct from NZ Reception Depot and need not be marched through their appropriate training depot. Any extra-duty pay will cease 7 days after transfer to X (ii) list, subject to the proviso that if prior replacement is made ED pay will cease from such prior date.


    Y List
    The army ruling at one time was that if a soldier had been in hospital for 21 days or more he was put on the Y-list; which meant that when he became fit for duty he was sent to a holding unit and then could be sent to any unit other than his own. This, in most cases, was not a popular move which, I believe under the orders of General Montgomery, was changed. The ruling became that if a soldier was in hospital for 21 day when wounded or sick for 30 days he was entitled to seven days home sick leave and then would return to his own unit if they wished or could be transferred to another unit.

    TD
     
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  6. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Seems like you should just get a copy of the war diary for June 44. A full visit isn't needed if you engage one of the fine researchers who can copy it for you at a reasonable rate. What with the cost of petrol, parking, and whatever value you put on your own time, it's probably worth it.
     
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  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I've created your own thread for your query.
     
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  8. Martin Fowler

    Martin Fowler Member

    I think Operation Mitten is the best fit, given the dates, for when my grandfather was wounded. lt's the closest operation to his entry on the x(ii) list I could find where 3rd Inf. Div was mentioned. I don't really know how the M10s were deployed; I assumed they went in behind the regular tanks as a mobile support dedicated to picking off enemy tanks. I'm interested in finding out more about the tactics; I've seen the titles of some training manuals mentioned but I'm not sure how easy it will be to get hold of them.
     
  9. Martin Fowler

    Martin Fowler Member

    I don't mind at all, Tricky. I had read about the X(ii) and Y List before but the regulations, as quoted, don't quite fit the circumstances in my grandfather's case. It's been puzzling me because the "21 days away from his unit" before been put on the Y List doesn't match the 14 days period (27th June - 11th July) that my grandad spend on X(ii) before being put on the Y List. The only reason I can think of is the nature of his injury meant a long convalescence. The end of his service overseas coincided with his entry on the Y List so I believe they shipped him back and put him on the Y List as they either didn't anticipate him being able to return to his unit or he requested a transfer.

    I'm not sure of the exact cause of my grandfather's injury but the outcome was that he was rendered unconcious for 3 days. I'm not sure if he had any other injuries although nothing is recorded in the "wounds and injuries" section of his service record.
     
  10. Martin Fowler

    Martin Fowler Member

    A bit more info re. the X(ii) and Y lists.

    He was rendered unconcious for three days; probably caused by a close explosion and/or falling debris. I don't know if he had other injuries but there are no wounds or injuries recorded in the relevant section of his service record.

    My grandfather's move to the Y list coincided with him returning home.
     

    Attached Files:

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