11th Battalion Parachute regiment

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by wtid45, May 25, 2010.

  1. COMMANDO

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    does the cover not look to much the same as the 156 book ?
     
  2. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    Not teasing you m8, wouldn't dear do that:huh:
    I know mate:D cant wait to see the book in the flesh will go nicely with Their final Battle, and I expect I can get it signed by some fella;) just to keep mr Pariso happy he does like a signed book, come think of it where's Tom.......
     
  3. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  4. Dre

    Dre Member

    Hi Dre,

    Is the date of publication in september, this year?

    Regards
    Ramon
    Hi Ramon,
    No the date of publication will not be this year, news about the manuscript will come forward this September.


    Regards,
    Dre
     
  5. Dre

    Dre Member

    I know mate:D cant wait to see the book in the flesh will go nicely with Their final Battle, and I expect I can get it signed by some fella;) just to keep mr Pariso happy he does like a signed book, come think of it where's Tom.......
    I promised him I would do so :rolleyes:
     
  6. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Dre,

    Is the file from the National Archives you refer to CAB106/1133?

    A very interesting file which contains the correspondence between Lt Colonel Harris, tasked with writing the Official History of Market Garden, and the various Airborne Commanders. Anybody that was on the 11th Para Battlefield tour on the 28th April would have heard it being mentioned as a valuable source document that had been used by Gerrit Pijpers in his book.
    It contains many detailed accounts, albeit with the risk of some possibly written with the benefit of hindsight, including accounts from Colonel Lea and Major David Gilchrist from 11 Para.
    These, and some of the other people contacted, had been POWs after Arnhem, when the first accounts of the fighting appeared in the War Diaries etc, and their intimate knowledge of events and planning had not been available.
    This is a fascinating file which I started circulating back in 2009 after coming across the attached letter from Lea which introduced n entirely new perspective on the battle by stating that the original plan had been for 11 Para to follow 1 Para along the Onderlangs. Most previously published accounts had stated that the intention had always been for 11 Para to follow the South Staffords, which was what subsequently developed.

    John
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    does the cover not look to much the same as the 156 book ?

    its the inside that counts:D
     
  8. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    I must agree with Horsapassenger..we still learn things about the battle even though in theory the info has been out there for many years.....until the publication of the 11th Battalion book Arnhem Their Final Battle I was under the impression that the 11th Battalion's attack was on the Bovenover and not intended to be on the Onderlangs......I've just looked for example in Fairley's book and in the map on page 83 he has the 11th and South Staffs attacking together with of course they did but it is not normally mentioned about the intended attack on the Onderlangs.....I think Gerrit Pijper and David Truesdale's book is the first to mention this but I may be wrong..so well done Horsapassenger for finding it....
     
  9. COMMANDO

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    on the battle by stating that the original plan had been for 11 Para to follow 1 Para along the Onderlangs

    That conclusion I also made about 20 years ago (see my account about 1 para in the archive of the Airborne Museum page 12)

    'The 11 Para Battalion was to follow the 1st Parachute battalion along the lower road. However, after realizing from 3rd Para Battalion experiences that the lower road was to exposed to the fire from across the river, Lea decided to follow the South Staffords along the upper road ...'

    I also do believe(from mind) that this also written in the after action report, but have it not close at hand.

    What I not could trace then is if Dobie or McCarty was informed about Lea's decision... Was it just Lea's own decision... ? When was it taken (after the start of the attack or before?) And what conseqences did this have...?
     
  10. COMMANDO

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    Dre, can you give me a link of a larger photo of the book-cover?
    (like to post it on a small Dutch reenactment forum to inform members what books are coming)

    Peter
     
  11. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Peter

    Lea says in his letter to Harris (bottom of page) that he made his decision not to advance along the Onderlangs "at first light" when he saw that the area was devoid of cover and that it was "after the attack by 1 Para and the South Staffs had gone in".
    We know from other accounts (Cain) that Lea and McCardie later met at the St Elisabeth's hospital by which time the South Staffords attack was stalling. They then agreed that 11 Para was to attempt to move north of the Staffords along the railway - this was the attack that never developed.

    John
     
  12. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    its the inside that counts:D

    How true!!
     
  13. COMMANDO

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    Thanks John...

    I wonder if he informed Dobie of this... or was Dobie still expecting that 11 Para would come up behind him when his attack was held.
    How long must have taken for Dobie he knew 11 Para was not comming?

    Another possibility is that when 1 Para started to advance they came up 3 Para (or what was left of it) and that from this information 1 Para would go through at Onderlangs with 3 Para now forming up (again) behind, and 11 Para on the higher road.
    That there would be not much cover on the lower road was already known before the attack went in to all CO's as it was already decided that the transport of 1 Para was to take the northern road behind the South Staffs...
     
  14. Dre

    Dre Member

    A very interesting file which contains the correspondence between Lt Colonel Harris, tasked with writing the Official History of Market Garden, and the various Airborne Commanders. Anybody that was on the 11th Para Battlefield tour on the 28th April would have heard it being mentioned as a valuable source document that had been used by Gerrit Pijpers in his book.
    It contains many detailed accounts, albeit with the risk of some possibly written with the benefit of hindsight, including accounts from Colonel Lea and Major David Gilchrist from 11 Para.
    These, and some of the other people contacted, had been POWs after Arnhem, when the first accounts of the fighting appeared in the War Diaries etc, and their intimate knowledge of events and planning had not been available.
    This is a fascinating file which I started circulating back in 2009 after coming across the attached letter from Lea which introduced n entirely new perspective on the battle by stating that the original plan had been for 11 Para to follow 1 Para along the Onderlangs. Most previously published accounts had stated that the intention had always been for 11 Para to follow the South Staffords, which was what subsequently developed.

    John
    I must add that there is more very interesting information to be found in the cabinet files.
    I have only just finished adding these to my manuscript.
    I was fortunate to find your post just before last summer and immediately ordered the full file from the archives.
    I must admit that I too was quit baffled at Harris his findings, history was about to be changed.
    Like Airborne-Medic mentioned, credit goes to you for finding the information and sharing it with us.

    Regards,
    Dre
     
  15. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    I must add that there is more very interesting information to be found in the cabinet files.
    I have only just finished adding these to my manuscript.
    I was fortunate to find your post just before last summer and immediately ordered the full file from the archives.
    I must admit that I too was quit baffled at Harris his findings, history was about to be changed.
    Like Airborne-Medic mentioned, credit goes to you for finding the information and sharing it with us.

    Regards,
    Dre
    Dre

    Thanks - there are some more very interesting "little gems" hidden away in some of the other Cabinet Office Files and some of the other file series at the National Archives. I am certain that there are many others still waiting to be discovered. This is why I much prefer researching to writing!!

    John
     
  16. Dre

    Dre Member

    Dre

    Thanks - there are some more very interesting "little gems" hidden away in some of the other Cabinet Office Files and some of the other file series at the National Archives. I am certain that there are many others still waiting to be discovered. This is why I much prefer researching to writing!!

    John
    I must admit that those gems gave me a terrible headache as I knew I had to work out the new information and do plenty of researching before adding these to my manuscript.

    Dre
     
  17. Dre

    Dre Member

    Thanks John...

    I wonder if he informed Dobie of this... or was Dobie still expecting that 11 Para would come up behind him when his attack was held.
    How long must have taken for Dobie he knew 11 Para was not comming?

    Another possibility is that when 1 Para started to advance they came up 3 Para (or what was left of it) and that from this information 1 Para would go through at Onderlangs with 3 Para now forming up (again) behind, and 11 Para on the higher road.
    That there would be not much cover on the lower road was already known before the attack went in to all CO's as it was already decided that the transport of 1 Para was to take the northern road behind the South Staffs...
    Some more information from the same file John has shared.
    Lea explains the events after 1st daylight; I was able to see that the river axis taken by 11 para bn was devoid of any form of cover.
    Having no contact whatsoever with 1st para bt, Lea decided to switch to the northern axis with the intention of using the cover in area c on sketch map (see John's attachments) and coming in on what Lea hoped would be 1 para bt left rear.
    Lea ordered Acoy to move forward to area D on map and he shortly after received a message from Gilchrist that O/C 2nd S.Staffs was ahead of him in area E on map.
    Lea thereafter went forward and found that the attack by the S.Staffs had petered out and furthermore all the the approaches to their objective was covered by mg fire.
    It became clear to Lea and McCardie that the original plan could no longer be pursued.

    In Arnhem Their Final Battle there is mention that Lea had mentioned in his response to Lt-Col Harris the Arnhem narrative, that Lea admitted that he failed to contact 1st Bt to let them now of the change of plan.
    But he continues by explaining that it wouldn't had mattered as by this time 0630hrs the battle fought by 1st and 3rd Bt had petered out.
    Lea could not remember if the S.Staffs were in contact with 1st Bt, but he mentions that he should have taken some steps himself to see that the information had been passed along.

    Dre
     
  18. Dre

    Dre Member

    Dre, can you give me a link of a larger photo of the book-cover?
    (like to post it on a small Dutch reenactment forum to inform members what books are coming)

    Peter
    pm send
     
  19. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Thanks John...

    I wonder if he informed Dobie of this... or was Dobie still expecting that 11 Para would come up behind him when his attack was held.
    How long must have taken for Dobie he knew 11 Para was not comming?



    Peter

    I think that Dobie was overtaken by events. He certainly makes no mention of the failure of 11 Para to follow him in his diary or other reports. Of the attack he says: "Met someone who said Mac (McCardie) with his lot and Tim were at street corner so I contacted him and we decided to have a crack at getting through on two roads, plan was cancelled as we received news Bridge had been given up, higher-ups sent plan to get us out – we got F.O.O. with John (Frost) on set and they said they were still there, we decided we should disregard higher-ups as they couldn’t understand position, so decided to put our old plan into execution starting 0330. George L. (George Lea) came up – Mac to take Lion – I was to take River bank – George follow me. Commenced 0345. Confined by higher ups.
    It was a journey I shall never forget. We could hear that Mac had started to our left, we ourselves were on the river bank and just coming clear of the houses when all hell broke loose."

    A short while later Dobie was wounded and, temporarily, became a prisoner.

    McCardie says that he made a request to 11 Para for support at about 0800 and developed the plan for them to go on his left flank at about 0830.

    This certainly raises the question as to what exactly was 11 Para doing between first light (0530) and 0800 . I don't think that the war diary or Lea's or Gilchrist's accounts provide much help.

    John
     
  20. Shell Scott

    Shell Scott Daughter of 11PARA vet.

    Hi guys, after what seems like an age I have time to be back on the web!

    I had an amazing day at Duxford, and was offered some valuable help.

    I hope to have a trip to the National Archives soon too. I am also hoping to get a copy of Arnhem Their Final Battle from somewhere to read.

    Thanks again guys for all your help in this very interesting and emotional journey of mine. It is still I think in its early stages and I am sure I shall never know the half of what he was involved with, especially as there is some hint of maybe covert ops! Only time will tell!
     

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