I am researching an individual who was transferred from 154th Regiment RAC to 111th Regiment RAC (11th Tank Brigade) on 12th December 1942 for deployment to the Middle East. His record shows him staying with this unit for the first 6 months of 1943 in the Middle East. However everything I read about 111th regt RAC, 11th Tank Brigade indicates that they were part of 42nd Armoured Division which was never deployed outside the UK. Anyone got any ideas what may be going on here? Elements of 111th Regiment RAC deployed with another unit? The only other indicator on the record is 3 references to a unit in Roman numerals XIVa, but later in the record written as X(IV)a. Grateful for your thoughts
11 Armd Bde left 42 Armd Div in May 1942 to become 11 Tank Bde in July 1942. From Jan 1943 "the Bde had the role of holding and training reinforcements" (Joslen's Orders of Battle) - around the time your subject went off to the Middle East. It doesn't say that that the unit was disbanded, so it may just have run down as drafts were sent off as reinforcements. 11 Tk Bde never left the UK, Bde HQ was disbanded in November 1943.
Thanks. I'm still perplexed then. Although there is this XIV reference on arrival in Eygpt. I attach the record for anyone who can decode it.
Stevelab No big mystery here as his records show that he was unemployed ( Y list) befor joining 154 RAC - then sent as reinforcement overseas on draft # RWOW2 - arriving in Egypt on the SICK list ( Xiv)- then to 76 Sdn ( possible transit camp) the again SICK LIST (Xiv) on to 3rd Hussars - then on to Derbyshire Yeomanry to stay until going home on December '43 from possible Sicily or Tunisia - landed in NWE and was captured on 16 June '44 - finally getting home in '45 Cheers
Thanks very much. So XIV=Sick. I have his medical record and his period of sick whilst training on Tanks with 154th Regiment RAC is reflected in that. But there is no sick leave mentioned on it from January to June 1943 in the Mid-East. It seems a long time to be sick in a combat zone. Thanks again.
Hi Stevelab - I believe x(ii) is for sick. See these links for help with x(iv) and others: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/19949-x-lists-service-records.html http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/29164-x4-abbreviation-service-records.html Tom, we will sort out these numbers eventually - won't we?! Regards. Jules.
Ahhh, thanks Jules, that makes sense. Although 6 months as an unposted reinforcement seems long. They must have been awash with reinforcements in early 1943 !
Jules Hopefully we shall sort out the numbers but I note that you persist in quoting the New Zealand classifications - and NOT the British ones - going on my own experience - when suffering Gastro Enteritis- I was removed from the regiment(SOS) and placed in the field ambulance under X(iv)- and on rejoining the Regiment I was then TOS - 145th Tank regiment - again when wounded - I was again SOS the regiment and X(iv)WIA to a CCS Ancona -then on to Gen Hospital Bari and finally 33rd Gen Hosp Catania. STEVE XIV = 14 X(iv)= SICK LIST you may be right in thinking that the Mid East was awash with reinforcements in early 1943 - but you forget the cause. The battles of Alum el Halfa - El Alemein and the pursuit of Rommel cost 8th Army over 20,000 casualties PLUS the Australian Division went home making a net loss of some 35,000 men - which had to be replaced - so the 44th Home Counties Division was broken up and scattered around - your relative came from a transit camp to 3rd Hussars - then on to the 2nd Derbyshire Yeomenry - it had to be hectic as the 8th Army was on the move west and people were coming and going all over the place SICK LEAVE - you are having a laugh - right ? After nearly six months in hospitals I was given ONE week in a convalescence camp - ON THE WAY BACK UP THE LINE- and felt guilty ! Cheers
You'll have to forgive me Tom, I am new to the forum and to this area of research. I attached a scan of my relatives record (3rd Post on this thread above) and as you can see it says 'Dis Emb Egypt XIV' 18.1.1943. The next Unit posting is 76 SQN RAC 7.6.43. From your experience does this look like he was on the sick list for 6 months? Elsewhere in his record for this period of time it does say X(IV)a.
Steve - can understand your concern as it can be confusing to anyone with no experience of the Army's ways - so i must say that being so long on the sick list is a bit off and something would have been done long before that happened- more likely sloppy clerking or mis placed records - as it technically should be written as X(iv) - he was most likely on the sick list on board ship - which was not too difficult as they had to pass through many wierd areas - like Freetown etc where they may have stooped for re fueling before Cape Town/Durban - even war diaries are supect as they are usualy made up by an exhausted Officers after a long days fighting- so I would blame sloppy clerking Cheers
Hi Tom - point taken about the links - they are the same links that were put forward to me when I asked the same question as Steve. As your record states that X(iv) is for sick, it could explain why my Grandad's say x(iv)a - he was not sick but away off to Egypt to become an officer - perhaps the "a" is the difference between sick and other reasons. Apolgies if the links have been misleading Steve. Jules.
Jules - no need for apologies as this is just a minor problem and it has a lot to do with sloppy and overworked clerks who - it must be said - were overwhelmed at times looking after the records of 150 men and the various duties and innoculations as they seldom has any help and were run ragged at times.....the War diaries suffered from the same defect inasmuch as at the end of a fighting day it was difficult to remain awake and sharp plus the factor of perhaps the writer was looking to "gild " the lily in his ambition to become a higher rank ....? Lots of things happen on a battlefield Cheers
Many thanks for the feedback. The military codes are finally making sense to me! And thanks very much Tom for your invaluable first hand knowledge.
