10th inter-allied commando, Troops 1 & 8

I am trying to establish the order of battle for Troops 1 & 8 of the 10th inter-allied commando on D-Day 1944.

Assuming the standard British Commando OOB for these Troops, each would have 50-60 men so for the two troops that would come to 100-120 men in total. However, I know that on D-Day Keiffers force landed with 177 men so that would leave 50-60 men unaccounted for.

I have seen reference to a "special" recon force that was associated with Troops 1 & 8 and elsewhere the suggestion that they had a "K-Troop", (where K refers to the Vickers K machine gun rather than being an Commando Troop designation) So I am wondering if these missing men might be represented by one of these organisations; although a troop equipped with the Vickers K might make it seem more like a Heavy weapons troop than a recon troop.

If anyone can shed some light on this it would be very much appreciated particularly if you can reference your sources.

 

Only three threads here mention them: Army and Royal Marine Commando's during OP Infatuate plus: 37258 Major-General Sir Robert Edward LAYCOCK, KCMG, CB, DSO, KStJ and 52970 Lieutenant-Colonel Peter LAYCOCK, MC?, Nottinghamshire Yeomanry & Commandos

My first search was with: "10th inter-allied commando" site:ww2talk.com Dropping "th" found a small number of other threads, which I have not looked at.

Two members focus on the D-Day landings Trux and Michel Sabarly, hopefully they will be along.

 

Thanks for that, it lead me to some other useful information anyway.

 

Hello,

Not sure if this will help, a copy and paste from the book "No. 10 (Inter-Allied) Commando, 1942-45 ... ".



Regards ...

 

Thank you, that does lend weight to the idea that K-Troop was a heavy weapons Troop, although that would mean 4 Commando effectively had two heavy weapons Troops since B troop was their organic HW troop, quite possible I suppose. If this was the case, and K-Troop was effectively a HW troop that would certainly solve the numbers question.

 

Commando Kieffer – Liste des 177 Commandos | D-Day Overlord

 

Thank you, a useful link.

 

This arrangement isn't strictly correct. 4 Commando had its own 6 troops for Neptune – A to F – and the French troops were attached to them for the operation as two additional troops, still organised as 1 and 8. However, they stayed with them during the fighting in France and by the time the Commando were redeployed to Europe in October for Operation Infatuate, 4 Commando had been reorganised. The troops were now numbered 1 to 6, with the French forming 5 and 6 Troops.

 

Thank you Stephen, (I already have your book an invaluable resource for my project!) Can you shed any light on the order of battle for those French troops on D-Day? I know they landed in two troops and a total of 177 men on 6/6/1944. But, assuming they were organised as standard British Army Commando 177 is enough for three troops. Did they just have two troops that were larger than standard?

 

Yo,

There is also this French site which may or may not load properly. I saved it as html, but it's too big to attach as zip here and would need to be uploaded to a server,

Ils étaient 177

Regards ...

 

Thank you for getting the book! I hope you enjoy it.

The organisation of the French commandos on D-Day was effectively a small HQ, 2 infantry troops and a machine gun section.

Assuming troops 1 and 8 were both structured in the same fashion as a standard commando in 1944, they will have each had 65 men: a troop HQ with a CO and two men, and two sections each of one officer and thirty men. It's possible these troops were slightly larger on D-Day – Maurice Chauvet claims 68 men in 1 Troop, possibly including an extra officer in the HQ group and/or a PIAT team.

When first formed and members of 10 Commando, these troops were smaller than the establishment (40ish men). Before D-Day their numbers were bolstered by men from a French unit formed in October 1943 – according to Chauvet, this group trained through the winter before joining 10 Commando in March. It was informally known as 9 Troop, but was never officially designated as such, and whether it was an individual unit at any point before its men were divvied up I can't say. At any rate, the men from 9 Troop were split between 1 and 8 troops to make up their numbers (and possibly higher as Chauvet suggests). With a small excess of men Amaury, 9 Troop's CO, formed a small K-gun section (ie. half a troop). 9 Troop also provided a small 3 man medical section under Lion.

The K-gun section (a phrase used by Chauvet, not an official name as far as I can see) was issued with K-guns presumably because they were available and that was what 4 Commando were issued with. I'm not sure of this section's size but Jean Charles Stasi claims it had 23 men. This is higher than 4 Commando's establishment, but still feasible.

At any rate, let's assume 68, 68 and 23 – that brings us to 159. That would leave 18 men for Kieffer's HQ section which feels about right, and would include the medical section and other names mentioned like Mazeas and their padre de Naurois. Kieffer effectively disbanded this section during the advance off the beach in order to make up for officer casualties sustained up to that point (mainly in HQ and 1 Troop).

9 Troop apparently joined 10 Commando at the end of March, and in mid-April the French contingent were formally attached to 4 Commando.It's worth noting that apparently around the same time the entirety of the French contingent takes the title 1st Battaillon de Fusiliers Marins Commandos (BFMC). So I doubt 9 Troop ever existed as a formation in its own right except during training – they were probably broken up almost immediately they arrived. And Chauvet is quite certain they were never a formal troop, he refers to the 'so-called 9 Troop'. Worth noting that 10 Commando's exact status at this time is effectively a paper commando anyway.

The K-gun section was probably technically independent and did have its own CO (Amaury) but was effectively embedded within 1 and 8 troops. I don't believe they were a separate formation within 10 Commando, but may have been within BFMC. I've never seen them referred to as a recce group or anything other than Amaury's K-gun section.

Hope this helps,
Stephen

 

Thank you very much that answers my question. Your book is excellent, I look forward to the one you write on Gold beach.

Many thanks to all who responded.

 

Worth noting that Michel's link gives the following:
1 Troop: 64, 8 Troop: 66, K-Gun: 23, HQ: 6, Medical: 3, Communications: 11, Transport: 4. So pretty close to my sources/workings

 

http://anfmc.free.fr/pdf/kieffer_simonet_2012.pdf

 

Good evening.
I am an enthusiast of British and French Commandos and was fortunate enough to have known them personally.

Some wonderful things have been said here, though I feel I must add a few clarifications. No. 10 Commando was not a fictional unit; it had a commanding officer and various troops. There are many photographs showing the "10 Commando" shoulder title, and—for the record—one can identify a French soldier wearing this title in photos taken in Normandy.

It was indeed Troop 9, but due to heavy losses sustained during raids, half its personnel were transferred to Troops 1 and 8. The remaining men formed the K-Gun section, led by Lieutenant Amaury. His deputy, Lieutenant Hubert, was killed on June 6, 1944.

Thank you for keeping their memory alive by talking about them; they were wonderful men.
Best regards from

 

No one has suggested for one moment that 10 Commando were a fictional unit and I’d thank you for not implying that anyone has done so. And perhaps you’ll provide hard evidence for a 9 troop.

 

Bonjour Stephen, désolé pour çette erreur de compréhension. Je me suis servi de Google translate qui a traduit la phrase ci-dessous de ton texte en disent que c'était une unité fictive ou sur le papier.

"Il convient de noter que le statut exact du 10 Commando à l'heure actuelle est en réalité celui d'un commando sur papier."

Je vais rechercher dans mes documents pour la Troop 9 et revenir sur ce post.
Encore désolé de cette incompréhension

 

For years, I too assumed that the troops in No. 10 were organised in the same way as the other commando troops. However, under the (subsidiary) War Establishment system, general regulations apply only in the absence of more specific regulations. Furthermore, the documents found so far may not be complete; they may therefore have been amended once or several times. Provisional War Establishments and their amendments were generally not published in the Army Council Instructions, so it is not possible to cross-check them.
And last but not least, No. 10 Commando, as a collection of national troops rather than a homogeneous unit turned out to be a very special one in practice.

Source: TNA DEFE 2-45 (contains War Diaries of No. 10, No. 12 and No. 14 Commando, Holding Operational Commando, the 4th and 5th Special Service Battalions, and No. 4 Combined Operations Bombardment Unit).

Appendix ‘A’ to the War Diary of No. 10 Commando for November/December 1942 shows an approved Provisional War Establishment with reference to a War Office letter, dated 06.07.1942, explained by a note from Lt.-Col. Lister, dated July 1942.
No. 10 Commando H.Q. is allocated a total British contingent of 44 all ranks (8 O, 1 WO, 4 SSjt./Sjt., 31 rank and file).
Transport:
1 Car, 4-seater
3 P.Us.
2 3-ton lorries
4 Motor-cycles
2 Bicycles

At this point, the following composition applies:
'To consist of H.Q. and four Troops initially with probable increase to eight Troops.' (The four were French, Dutch, X [or No. 3 Troop, German-speaking] and Belgian Troops. In the end there were 10 Troops, with some aborted planning and many changes: Norwegian, Polish, Czech, one more French (No. 8) and two more Belgian (Nos. 9 and 10), planned Italian-speaking, Yugoslav and/or 'Mediterranean' Troop ...). Owing to the complexities of providing the manpower, some troops were generally at full strength, whilst others faced constant difficulties, if not a complete failure to field a full complement.

The following structure is specified for the troops:
Troop HQ and 2 sections, each with a section HQ and 2 subsections
- Troop HQ: 25 (2 O, 2 sjt., 21 rank and file)
Section HQ: (1 O, 1 sjt., 1 rank and file)
Subsection: 14 rank and file, including the leading lance-sergeant.
Thus, 25 + 2 × (3 + 2 × 14) gives a total of 87 all ranks (4 O, 4 Sjt., 79 rank and file).
Transport:
1 Truck 8-cwt., 4-wheeled
1 Lorry, 3-ton, 4-wheeled
2 Motor-cycles
2 Bicycles.

So, Nos. 1 and 8 Troops had 87 all ranks each, makes 174, plus Kieffer, brings the number near to the famous 177. The war establishments were generally of a theoretical nature, so that – sometimes even explicitly – a
certain degree of flexibility (K-gun) regarding reorganisation was left to the officer commanding.

 

Those are 1942 establishments though. British commando organisation was different then too. None of the evidence from 1944 supports this kind of structure, and the idea that Kieffer was alone in his HQ group doesn’t make much sense.