102 A/T Reg.Assoc. Branch or active unit?

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by redtop, May 31, 2015.

  1. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    I have just started to research my father in law.

    I am at this moment awaiting his service record which may take some time.

    Info from pay book

    114361 Gnr Leslie Woodvine
    RA Field
    Trade.Driver/Mech.
    26.03.42 till 20.08.46.
    By dates of embarkation leave went to NW Europe November 1944

    He was awarded the 1939 /45 Star and the France and Germany Star
    .
    Family info says he was blown up by mine when a dispatch rider,he survived the war.


    After the war he joined the RA Association Membership No. NH/558

    The Association branch is given as :- 102 A/T Reg (NH) TA

    Would this relate the unit he served with or just a TA drill hall where the branch met ?

    I add a couple of posed pictures just out of interest

    Any help much appreciated.

    Brain cells just starting to click in

    I seem to remember a connection with the Green Howard's. Is this reflected by the headdress which does not appear to be a Beret?
     

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  2. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Bryan,

    The 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti-Tank Regiment were the anti-tank regiment of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division for the lattrer part of the fighting in the Western Desert, Sicily and North West Europe. If he had been with the regiment for the whole of his servicve I would have expected him to also have the medals covering his service in the Western Desert and Sicily.

    His Pay Book also says 'RA Field' suggesting he was in a Field Regiment. So, there is a bit of a mismatch here.

    Was your father in law from Newcastle Upon Tyne/Northumberland area? This is the only way I believe there would have been a TA drill hall/branch connection...

    Are you able to post-up his service records when received, so that we can clarify matters for you?!

    NB. I have had a look in the regimental history 'History of the Northumberland Hussars Yeomanry 1924 - 1949' (Bright). No mention of him in the Appendix of wounded or the index.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  3. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve Mac
    Thanks for the info.
    My father in law was from Doncaster but moved to Dagenham during war.
    Hand written note on back of membership card says
    Your nearest Gunner friend is Lt.Col H Ashton MC.DL
    Wealdside ,S. Weald.
    There is a South Weald near Brentwood in Essex which is not to far from Dagenham.
    He did not serve in N Africa
    Will post records when received.
    Did you pick up my edit about the headdress? and I guess the 25 pdr would negate the anti aircraft role.
     
  4. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

  5. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Copy of Association membership card.
    Hope it comes up large enough to read.
    Would the NH in brackets refer to North Humberland?
     

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  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Headdress looks like the standard General Service Cap to me.
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    Nice to see an Austin K5 in use in a photo taken presumably during the spring of 1945. :) U.S. propaganda had it that they had all broken down by then...
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    NH refers to the Northumberland Hussars.

    All I can think is that his local branch of the RA Association were affiliated, for whatever reason, to a particular regiment but that was no bar to any other gunners joining it.
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    Where was he demobbed ? Could it be that he was in Northumberland for a few months before being released and just wanted somewhere outside of the barracks for a cheap pint ? The papers with his service records might well clear this up.
     
  10. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Red top,

    Good luck with the search for information. I've got some of the war diary for 102 ATk Regt for 1944 and will see if any reinforcements are mentioned in November 1944.

    I'm very interested in the photo with the lorry (as Rich says, it is one of the notorious Austin K5s). Do you have any more information about the photo, perhaps a date and location scribbled on the back? I'm researching as many units that were equipped with this vehicle as I can find to see what effect their problems actually had on operations so would be grateful for any more information you have and any more vehicle photos you come across.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  11. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Rich
    He was demobbed at Foots Cray Kent according to document stamp,his paybook address was Dagenham Essex.
    Tom
    I will try to find original print to see if it is annotated,I believe there were only two prints but will check.
     
  12. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Tom
    Both prints dated 15,03.45
    The K 5 picture note
    Belgium ,out for a rest.
     
  13. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Hope this will not cloud the already murky waters
    I do not know if this was his Div sign or memrobilia
     

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  14. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    That's the Guards Armoured Division. If it was his, that narrows the field for his regiment.
     
  15. jmcq

    jmcq Junior Member

    His service number indicates a R.A.S.C.no.( block 1 . whatever that means). Could he have started in the RASC then transferred to the R A. ?.

    His headdress looks to me like a Scottish Tam o Shanter. I may be wrong,
     
  16. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    When 50th (Northumbrian) Division were returned home as a training cadre shortly after 30 November 1944, some of the Divisional troops were reallocated to other divisions. The 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti-Tank Regiment went to 15th (Scottish) Division and stayed with them until after cessation of hostilities.

    They replaced the 97th Anti-Tank Regiment.

    The Northumbrians having ignored an invitation by General Barber, OC 15th (Scottish) Division, to adopt the Tam o Shanter, eventually informed him of the absurdity of forcing the Northumbrians, historic enemies of the Scottish, to wear a 'a beret with a bobble on it'. Indeed, he was told that it was questionable if hostilies with the Scottish had ever officially ended. General Barber relented and allowed them to continue to wear their 'Noodle' headwear and badge. So, it is likely that transferring Northumberland Hussars retained their 'Noodle' headwear and badge.

    It therefore could be that any shortfall in the nominal roll of the 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti-Tank Regiment came from the departing 97th Anti-Tank Regiment. This would see Anti-tank gunners wearing the Tam o Shanter but serving with the Northumbrians. Such a transfer would also explain why he has no medal for fighting in Sicily, i.e. the Noodles were there, 15th (Scottish) Division were in the UK.

    Only Gnr Woodvine's service records will reveal what did happen during his service, but I feel that he may have transferred units a few times.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  17. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Red Top,

    Thanks. For some reason they did look like spring!

    Regards

    Tom
     
  18. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Hi JMCQ
    He may well have transferred only service records will tell ,his trade was driver /mech so could have started in RASC.

    Steve
    My original thought was Tam o Shanter the chap on the left of the picture appears to have a bobble on the back of headdress but then it could be part of the truck door.Thanks for he informative answers .

    Tom.
    Your welcome,surprising how these little snippets add to the over all picture.
     
  19. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Going over things in my mind when I woke up at about 2 AM I realized that I had made an oversight.
    I thought that he had joined the association after the war,but the date on his membership card is 02.06.46 but he was not discharged until 20.08.46.
    I know from my own experience that on a recruit cadre passing out they were encouraged en-masse to join the Regimental association and in this case only the unit name was entered until they joined their own local branch.
    So may be the R.A. was encouraging men to join prior to being demobbed.This might explain the unit name on card but R.A. friend being near his home address.
    R.A. FIELD is stamped on a certificate of transfer to the Army Reserve ,so it may have posted him to a different branch of R.A.service.
    I will post his service record on receipt and hopefully throw some light on it.
     
  20. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    redtop

    My interests centre on the British Army in Schleswig Holstein in the immediate post war period but I may have some information of interest to you

    According to my working notes 102 Anti Tank Regiment were indeed part of 15 Scottish Division in the closing months of WW2. RHQ was in the small town of Bargeteheide, north east of Hamburg on VE Day but the Gun Batteries could have been deployed elsewhere in the Divisional area which stretched northwards from the River Elbe to south of Lubeck. Shortly afterwards the entire Regiment concentrated in the small lakeland town of Molln ,which was also on the borders of the newly created Soviet and British Zones of Occupation ,where they were to remain till Spring 1946.

    15 Scottish Division, along with the majority of 8 British Corps, were disbanded at this time. 102 Anti Tank Regiment however survived and moved to Hamburg where for a short time they provided the Guard Force for the former Neuengamme Concentration Camp now used by the British as a secure holding area for former members of SS, the Gestapo and other War Criminals. The Guards Division assumed responsiblity for Schleswig Holstein in early Summer 1946 and 102 Anti Tank Regiment came under command their Headquarters Artillery (which could explain the Guards Division shoulder flash souvenir) and moved to Kiel where they finally disbanded in December 1946.

    Your father in law's Record of Service and the Regimental History will doubtless provide greater detail but I hope the above will provide some interim information
     

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