101 Squadron loss, November 1943.

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by CaroleH89, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. CaroleH89

    CaroleH89 Member

    Would appreciate it if someone could tell me what happened to Sergeant L. A. Crooks and his crew, lost 26 November 1943.

    Many Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Carole.
     
  2. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Carole - it never hurts to add all info you know into the request upfront.

    The person you are looking into is Sergeant CROOKS, LEONARD ARTHUR Flt. Engr 1802161 RAF who is buried in a collective grave in SAGE WAR CEMETERY (from the CWGC).

    I am sure that others will be along shortly to provide the info you need from the Chorley series of books, but the above info will make it easier for other interested parties to find this thread one day.

    Also, the SQN ORB is available on-line for a few quid - that will provide more detail on the mission etc.

    cheers & good luck



    Dave
     
  3. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    He is buried with:

    Sergeant TIMMS, DENNIS WILLIAM Air Gnr 1576649 RAF
    Flight Sergeant ZANCHI, PAUL RUDOLPH Pilot 1321233 RAF
    Sergeant LOVESAY, ALLAN GEORGE Air Gnr 1458314 RAF
    Sergeant WALLER, HENRY STEWART W.Op./Air Gnr 1097035 RAF
     
  4. CaroleH89

    CaroleH89 Member

    Hi Dave,

    Sorry, you're right, I need to stop being lazy and only including the bare bones.

    I've got a list of ORBs to acquire at some point and this is going on it... I also plan to acquire Bomber Command Losses myself but I figure no point in getting the originals when there's a 2nd edition coming out for Volume 1 and presumably eventually the others.

    I very much appreciate all the help people on here give.

    Cheers,
    Carole.
     
  5. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Cheers Carole - I just like to think that one day, someone might be looking for info on their relative and they would miss this sort of thread if the full details aren't there for Google to find.

    Also, I probably missed it earlier - but what are you researching? Is it names on a memorial in your home town or are these people related to you??

    My researching is all over the shop and I think it helps if I let everyone know why I want extra info.

    regards


    Dave
     
  6. CaroleH89

    CaroleH89 Member

    Mostly working on researching some very distant cousins (and I mean very - 2nd cousins 3 times removed, 3rd cousins 2 times removed and the like) that I'm turning up with my genealogy, but occasionally I'll throw the odd random interest and curiosity thing in too
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    From Chorley BCL page 403.

    Sgt W. Rowand was also killed and Sgt J C Jossa was a POW.

    Lancaster III DV268 - SR-02 Op: Berlin

    T/o 1718 Ludford Magna.

    Sgt Jossa was repatriated aboard the Arundel Castle, arriving in Liverpool on 6th February 1945.
     
  8. CaroleH89

    CaroleH89 Member

    Thank you Spidge :)
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I'm confused if DV 268 went down in November, this must be an error here as it says it was on a mission in Jan 44 flown by PO Fawcett.
    101 Squadron RAF

    edit.
    ah Fawcett is listed in DV 269 here the raid that DV268 was lost.
    101 Squadron RAF

    must be a typo in the Jan 44 raid.

    Zanchi, Jossa & a few others who were lost in DV268 on a raid on 23rd Nov in LM 363.
    101 Squadron RAF


    Crooks listed as having done 2 missions here.
    101 Squadron RAF
    Havent found his other one yet.

    Just found his 1st mission , 22-11-43.
    This is crew
    101 Squadron RAF

    DV291 , crashed on take off noone hurt.
    Bound for Berlin.
    101 Squadron RAF
     
  10. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Carole,

    Sergeant Crooks was a substitute for regular F/Engineer Sgt John Omerod.

    From pp 36-7 and 179 of "Carried on the Wind - Wartime Experiences of a Special Duties Operator with 101 Squadron RAF Bomber Command" by Sean Feast, Woodfield Publishing, 2003

    Rusty is P/O Russell Waughman, AFC, DFC, skipper of LL757 "Oor Wullie"

    The 101 Squadron Operations Record Book shows Zanchi and crew arriving on station wef 12 November posted from 1662 CU.

    Crooks' two ops were Berlin on 22th and Berlin again when he was lost on the 26th. I looked through the 101 Sqn ORB for October 1943 (not online) and no sign of him.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
  11. CaroleH89

    CaroleH89 Member

    Thanks Owen and Dave for all the info... what a story, so sad...

    Is it likely that the crew Crooks flew his first mission with was the one he'd come through training with?

    Cheers,
    Carole.
     
  12. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Carole,

    Not necessarily. 55016 F/O E. Wallis is posted from No. 1662 CU wef 12 November 1943. No sign of a crew with him.

    Sgt Crooks replacement, 1661466 Sgt. P Morrissey, arrives on station same day as rest of Zanchi, and some of Wallis crew.

    It may be that this crew was assembled from "odd bods". Morrissey went on to do 29 ops with the Wallis crew. Will have a further look later. I also will go back a bit further in the ORB and see if Crooks shows up even earlier, perhaps September or October. He may have been in hospital etc.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
  13. CaroleH89

    CaroleH89 Member

    Thanks Dave... it just seems so sad... I mean, all deaths were sad, but quite apart from the circumstances of the plane's loss and the argument, the fact that Crooks' original crew came through okay... Then again, so many cruel endings in war... another of the Bomber Command guys I'm interested in was lost on his 24th mission - so near yet so far... the vagaries of luck and fate :(
     
  14. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Carole,

    I went back to 1 May 1943 in the ORB. Sadly, nothing.

    I agree with you about cruel endings. But imagine, had Jossa not survived then nothing would be known about the way they died.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
  15. louisjossa

    louisjossa New Member

    Hi my father was John Jossa, they were shot down by a night fighter on their way back from Berlin. During the raid they were seperated from the stream and there was a discussion on what course to take, My father was the Navigator and i believe wanted to cross Berlin and return to the stream but Paul wanted to bypass Berlin and return. They bypassed Berlin and were trailed by a night fighter which they believed they had lost, but were eventually shot down, i believe, near the dutch boarder.
    As reported all of the crew died in the crash except dad who was very seriously injured in the crash breaking most of his bones, legs, arms, back,and pelvis he was also in a coma for at six months i believe.
    John Ormerod often came to visit when i was growing up and is still living in the Manchester area. I do not think there was an argument but a difference of opinion, my father was the only person who survived from the crash so he is the only person who knew what happened. I believe that Dad felt guilty to have survived for the rest of his life but do not think that he blamed himself for what happened, but accepted it as a tragic event in just the same way that he never complained of his injuries or felt sorry for himself.
     
  16. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Louis,

    Welcome aboard.

    Thank you for your memories of your dad's service and the horrific injuries he suffered when DV268 crashed.

    I'll have to pull out "Carried on the Wind" again and have a read as to how Sean Feast, the writer and Ted Manners, the ABC man on Rusty Waughman's crew reached that conclusion. If your father passed in 1990 as is stated and that book didn't come out until 2003, somebody had to have told them that argument story. As your dad was the sole survivor, the story had to have started with him as a disagreement and become embellished by retellings of ex-airmen at reunions etc to the point where it became an "argument." Like most books, once they are written you can't go back and change things...short of writing a whole new edition.

    I've been researching the squadron for over 20 years so interested in your dad's service and his experiences. There wouldn't happen to be a photograph of the Zanchi crew in existence, would there? I know that owing to the ABC equipment aboard cameras were frowned upon. Then again, the Waughman crew took several of LL757, one clearly showing the showing the dorsal aerials.

    And you know Curly. What a character he is. I last saw him and four more of Rusty Waughman's crew at the 2010 annual reunion in Lincoln and Ludford Magna. With six of the eight men from Rusty's crew still with us they have to be the most extant ex-crew left from the war.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
  17. Little Friend

    Little Friend Senior Member

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I took these at Ludford Magna,Lincolnshire. 2011.
     
  18. louisjossa

    louisjossa New Member

    Hi Dave, I have read carried on the wind, Curly gave me a copy. How it appeared in the book and the subsequent interpretation of events is that it was a result of an argument that they got shot down, which i do not think was the case, Dad and Paul did have a disagreement on what to do when they were seperated from the stream post bombing Berlin. This was their third mission, which included an aborted flight on the 23rd, so i would expect there was a lot of "what should we do now" type discussion between the new and green crew when they found themselves isolated, it must have been a terrifying experience.Dad thought go back over Berlin to catch the stream and Paul had different thoughts, i would expect other crew members may have been involved, in this type of decision as well. The decision had been made and they had set their course for home when they picked up a night fighter, as i recall the story, it was some time before they were shot down and had carried out a number of evasive moves before finally being hit, it may not even have been the original night fighter that shot them down, and it was not over Berlin.I have tried to find the night fighter that shot them down but not found it yet though think i got close. They were also much lower than 20,000 feet which may account for why dad survived. Dad was with the plane when it hit the ground and was somehow thrown clear of the wreckage. I think he was amazed that the German doctors invested so much effort in saving his life.
    On the pictures, i have never seen any of the crew, I only have one of Dad in Canada whilst training, I expect with the limitations on 101 and the fact that it was the second mission Dad would not have had any that would have survived. I will have a look to check though.
     
    alieneyes likes this.
  19. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Details of the above loss.....

    26-27 November 1943

    101 Squadron
    Lancaster III DV268 SR-02
    Op. Berlin

    Took off from Ludford Magna at 1718 hours. Those who died lie in Sage War Cemetery. Sgt. Jossa was repatriated aboard the Arundel Castle arriving in Liverpool on 6 February 1945

    Crew.

    Sgt. P R. Zanchi +
    Sgt. L A. Crooks +
    Sgt. J C. Jossa. p[ow
    Sgt. W./ Rowand +
    Sgt. H S. Waller +
    Sgt. D. Timms +
    Sgt. A G. Lovesay +

    Source - RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol.4 - W R. Chorley
     
  20. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Louis,

    Again, many thanks for this. You have filled in a huge blank in my files on this loss. With RAF records being what they are and the UK Data Protection Act, if there wasn't an Aussie or Canadian aboard a crashed kite, the way we learn anything is when the families of those chaps who flew, and in 55,000+ cases, died, find us. As you have. I should stress that I am only speaking for myself here.

    I think I might be able to assist you in your quest. You can reach me: dave_stockholmATyahooDOTcom, replacing the obvious.

    Regards,

    Dave
     

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