IWM - description errors, mysteries and "possible" solutions?

Discussion in 'WW2 Museums. Events, & places to see.' started by Ramiles, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Having been reading and listening to some of the excellent online info on the IWM website I thought it might be useful to have somewhere "fun" to post errors, mysteries and solutions to some of the description texts I've seen so far there.

    Some are simple fixes, like the odd snuck in typos, but others are a bit more mysterious - like is a "picture caption" right or how can something in a description actually be "correct" - i.e. a picture might be marked as nr. Tilly, but does someone know it is actually only a few miles from Bayeux? Is a vehicle marked as one thing when someone knows it's actually something else or another unit altogether?

    Might be a chance to be joyfully pedantic or raise some real "mysteries" and find some neat solutions that might ultimately prove very useful for future research....

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
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  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Here's my first querulous "case" : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80019518


    Object description
    British trooper served as gunner/driver with 24th Lancers and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry in GB and North West Europe, 1944-1945, including Normandy landings, France, 6/1944; POW in Stalag X-B, Sandbostel, Lower Saxony, Germany, 4/1945.

    Reel 10:
    posted to 24th Lancers, 12/1941. Aspects of training with 24th Lancers in GB, 12/1941-6/1944: issued with cap badge; posted to HQ Sqdn; opinion of Crusader tank; description of tank training at Chippenham Park, Suffolk; story about illiterate trooper Tom Castle; organisation of HQ Sqdn; number of tanks and crew; description of training as tank gunner.

    And to "quote" from Reel 12:
    embarked with tanks aboard LCT; description of crossing from Gosport to France, night of 5-6/Jun/1944. Aspects of operations with 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Bde in Normandy, France, 6-7/Jun/1944: description of ration packs in tank; problem of LCT not reaching landing beach; description of tanks driving through water onto landing beach; story of tank being hit by shell; description of conditions on landing beach; transferred to Sherman DD tank with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 7/Jun/1944.

    (Nb. There seems to be a very high degree of "flexibility" between service in 24th L and SRY) - that's proving a bit hard for me to understand at the moment.

    Unless there was "movement" between the regiments to quite a high degree that I've been hitherto as yet unaware of here?

    I believe there could be hazy recollection there, but the detail in the description does seem particularly strong so it would be interesting to know if there was this regimental flexibility in the 8th Armoured brigade at the time of D-day? With crews who lost tanks being shifted immediately to whichever places needed to be filled (i.e. transferred to Sherman DD tank with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 7/Jun/1944) right away???

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
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  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Proof if ever it was needed how forward thinking and innovative the British are:

    Dad's war [a tank commander in Europe, 1844-45 with the XXIV Lancers and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry]
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/35222

    To think we had British tanks in Europe as far back as 1844!!!

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
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  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Slight "typo" noted here in : Morris, Robert Malcolm (Oral history) (20468)

    Makes it a bit hard to find the "specific" section on Jurques in this great set of interview tapes, since in the "Content description":

    REEL 8 Continues: facilities at Fayed; atmosphere in regiment. Aspects of period as trooper on draft in GB, 4/1944-6/1944: return to GB under Python leave scheme; impressions of GB; move to Armoured Reinforce Depot at Manningtree; attitude of his sergeant-major. Recollections of operations as trooper with B Sqdn, Sherwood Rangers in Normandy, 1944: channel crossing; in holding camp near Arromanches; posting to unit near Bayeux to drive Sherman tank; reception by crew; effects of opening fire on German Tiger tank during patrol towards Jerques; reversing into cover after shot; restricted movement in bocage; tank-infantry co- operation; threats to tanks and use of prophylactic fire; character of fighting in Normandy; damage to tank by German Panzerfaust in farmyard; method of firing gun and conditions in tank during action; communication in tank and direction by tank commander; reliability of Sherman tank.

    Whilst in the associated places it is "Jurques, Calvados, France"

    A great set of tapes but it took a bit of "bumbling" about to find the "Jurques" bit referred to in there as a result of this "difference" between the "content" and "associated" tags.

    And there's further confusion in the actual audio account as the place he's referring to in his account, he thought was somewhere on the road from Bayeux to St.Lo. (though he does also say it was near to Villers Bocage). Jurques I guess I'd say is more on the road between "Caen and Vire" quite far away from the road from Bayeux to St.Lo., still as a tank driver (with limited view) he was probably relying on his tank commander to tell him where he was and where to go ;)

    If there is "another place" actually called Jerques that is on the road from Bayeux to St.Lo. I haven't found it yet...

    Nice that it was "B Sqdn, Sherwood Rangers" he was with though! And plenty of great WW2 detail in these accounts.

    Though I noticed that in the "Associated people and organisations" section associated with these it doesn't yet mention the SRY, Sherwood Rangers or "B" squadron SRY - despite all the nice detail about the SRY in these tapes so it's a pure fluke that I found it at all there.

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Something to look forward one day to having available on line? Currently this item is limited to just a contents description only.

    I am wondering now if some items at the IWM are not "available" because some of the contents might be deemed a bit "sensitive" (i.e. the mercy killing of doomed wounded is mentioned here) to just release generally on line? If so couldn't they just "excise" these bits from the audio that is released? and make a note of this in the description file? Such things may not be an issue though, I do not know???

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80020549

    Rosier, Frank Robert (IWM interview)
    British private served with 17 Platoon, D Coy, 2nd Bn Gloucestershire Regt in GB and Normandy, 1943-1944

    REEL 3 Continues: use of 'Tommy lighters'; use of condoms to waterproof personal items; dealing with German sniper; reluctance of unit Bren gunner to kill sniper. Recollections of operations as private with 17 Platoon, D Coy, 2nd Bn Gloucestershire Regt, 50th Div in Normandy, 6/1944-8/1944: move to Bayeux, 7/6/1944; reception by French civilians in Bayeux, 7/6/1944; how D Coy dumped their bicycles on route to Tilly; in action against Panzer Lehr at Tilly; amusing story of bull that scattered D Coy; role in played in rescuing group of trapped tankman; ferocity of fighting at Tilly; chaotic character of fighting; US troops preference for British Army food; pollution of water supply; scavenging for water and food; mercy killing of doomed wounded; in action during patrol at Thury Harcourt, 11/8/1944; in action at Epaignes, 25/8/1944; reaction to killing German soldier.

    Ps... there is also a tiny typo in the description above i.e. role in played in rescuing group of trapped tankman
     
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    According to this link: http://vernon-visite.org/rgb3/seine3_1944.shtml
    August 1944, Operation Neptune: the British forces cross the Seine - page 3

    The IWM pic at: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205206279
    Of Sherman tanks crossing a Bailey bridge over the Seine at Vernon, 28 August 1944.

    Is [17] August 27 in the evening (Sunday, August 27 1944) : the 4th / 7th Royal Dragoon Guards tanks on the bridge (view from Vernonnet)
    http://vernon-visite.org/pics/autre/crossing5.jpg

    If this is the same pic (the IWM is prehaps for "publicity" i.e. severely truncated just to show the cheerful chap on the tank and less of the terribly wrecked Vernon town and old bridge around?)

    If correct though, it gives more detail to the IWM pic and suggests this might be Sunday, August 27 1944 and not 28 August 1944.

    Oddly.... something though is wrong there, not sure which to trust ;)
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Okay, not sure if this is an IWM... it is perhaps rather "odd though" ????

    Monty crossing the Seine (See pic # 18 here: http://vernon-visite...ine3_1944.shtml )
    Says 1st September 1944 - and see too: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/7978-seine-crossing-vernon-1944-2007/?p=142477

    And another view of Monty on the Seine here; but this one says 3rd September :eek:
    http://www.worcester...h_vernon_part13
    Field Marshal Montgomery crossing the Bailey Bridge at Vernon (IWM) (3rd September 1944)
    (Was Monty doing laps??? :Hydrogen: ) Did he like doing it so much the first time he just couldn't resist going around for another go??? ;)

    All the best,

    Rm.

    Ps. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showpost.php?s=00f2893a25705fbd9bd337d05af3c8f9&p=2332&postcount=3
    Seems to be the same picture (as that "said above" to be from the 3rd Sept 1944 - but with the "new" attribution there as: "From Monty's Memoirs, The picture is taken September 1. 1944 "crossing the Seine at Vernon by a pontoon bridge".
    So perhaps once was "just enough" after all ;) Confusing though, I did think he might have "lingered in Vernon" a few days as a plodder "just to get that perfect picture - with the right light - to show the folks back home" :(

    http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/11/books/the-ally-we-loved-to-hate.html
    "Mr. Hamilton believes that Montgomery, a perfectionist to begin with, was driven to the edge of madness by his sense of responsibility. As evidence, he offers extraordinary displays of compulsive, even obsessive, behavior. "

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/monty-world-war-iis-most-misunderstood-general.htm
    "As Churchill once said of him that he was "indomitable in retreat; invincible in advance; insufferable in victory!"

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/51068-montgomery-controversy/
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This one I think I'd title * "IWM searches often give unusual but interesting things"

    I've been looking through these all:
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Mont%20Pincon%20&f[0]=mediaType%3Avideo&f[1]=mediaType%3Aimage

    For video and images I assumed and oddly it's mostly "suit badges" (*IWM searches often give unusual but interesting things)

    As (Having seen a map of a proposed route and heard about a Sherman tank that "slipped" and "fell" into a quarry there) I thought that there was a "recreation" or a film of Sherman tanks on a road/path on Mont Pincon that might help out understanding the route that the 8th Armoured Brigade tanks took up to the top.

    Rm.

    Ps. Seem to have found something here: THE 43RD (WESSEX) DIVISION CONSOLIDATES ITS HOLD ON MONT PINCON [Allocated Title] (A70 115-3)
    Supplementary coverage of incidents during the capture of the Mont Pincon 'massif' filmed also by Sergeant Parkinson.

    And this: Imperial War Museums
    Opens up a lot of interesting results :) perhaps a part of the problem here is the character (รง) used the "c" in "Pincon" :pipe: ?

    Yep: Imperial War Museums :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    FIELD MARSHAL MONTGOMERY AT THE ALBERT CANAL

    Currently has...

    B9975 - Object description
    Original wartime caption: Field Marshal Montgomery and Gen. Hottocks stand up in the car to get a better view of the area. In the background is the bridge over the canal which the enemy only partially demolished in the haste of his retreat.

    Edit : Search | Imperial War Museums ;-)
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2022
  10. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Oops
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2022
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  11. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 7, 2022
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  12. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

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  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  14. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    C-IN-C's TOUR OF 5TH INFANTRY DIVISION

    The Object description text incorrectly has "Notts Yeomanry"

    BU 11873 : Object description
    Original wartime caption: C-in-C inspects guard of honour at 1st Notts Yeomanry, R.H.Q. at Salder. .


    Vs. Corrected to Northants / Northamptonshire... 5d-7d12m1945

    Screenshot_20220924-132327_Samsung Internet.jpg

    C-IN-C's TOUR OF 5TH INFANTRY DIVISION

    Similarly : C-IN-C's TOUR OF 5TH INFANTRY DIVISION
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: C-in-C with C.O. 1st Notts Yeomanry [Colonel Lord George Scott].
     
  16. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    2ND ARMY MEN RECEIVE NEWS OF LEAVE

    BU1489 : Object description - Original wartime caption: Men of the Sherman (sic) Rangers, 8th Armoured Bde., gather round a wireless set to hear the welcome news. The men pictured, all landed on D-day and were the first British troops to enter Germany at Beek, near Nijmegen.

    large_BU_001489_2.jpg
     
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  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Nov 6, 2022

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