3 Panzer- Grenadier Division- 3 Infanterie Division( mot.)

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Stuart Avery, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Its was bliss being Gary's taxi- driver on the next day.:DWhen i finally found it ( don't take the wrong turning)! I blame Frank de Planta for useless directions. Giggle.

    Tom, can you please email them to me if you don't mind? Or, is there a link?

    Many thanks
    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  2. Maczuga509

    Maczuga509 Member

    Hello Stuart ! I learned a lot about the engagement of the division on the Bernhard Line. Thank you also to the man who translated the pages !
    I am looking for some informations about engagement of the division from Mai 20 to 4-6 june 1944. I would like to know if there is a way to publish the page of that period ? Thank you very much.

    Warmest regards
    Loïc
     
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  3. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi,

    There are a few pages in T315 R173 but they are only from the perspective of 3 Coy, Pioneer Bn 3. I'll post them up anyway as they may be of interest:

    T315 R173 folio 1196 - 3 Coy - Pi Btl 3 - 1944 diary cover.JPG T315 R173 - 3 Coy, Pi Btl 3, 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 17 - 20 May 44.JPG T315 R173 - 3 Coy, Pi Btl 3, 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 20 - 24 May 44.JPG T315 R173 - 3 Coy, Pi Btl 3, 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 24 May 44.JPG T315 R173 - 3 Coy, Pi Btl 3, 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 25 - 26 May 44.JPG T315 R173 - 3 Coy, Pi Btl 3, 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 27 - 31 May 44.JPG

    More to follow.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  4. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Sent you a message with my email address has and when you want to start a conversation?

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  5. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Hi Tom,

    This is probably a silly question, but what is that black box? I'm guessing its the page numbers? In NORBERT SZAMVEBER'S Book: COMBAT HISTORY of The PANZER- ABTEILUNG 103 Sept 43- Aug 44 he mentions that he has a copy of this diary in his book..

    He has also used the book in parts that I scanned, and that lovely chap Pieter, aka stolpi translated.

    I'm still waiting for another book thats about to be printed again.. Or, i should say another batch of it.

    Edit.. I'm sure its the same war diary? Will check.


    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  6. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Stu,

    It is the count for the microfilming.

    What book is being reprinted? anything interesting?

    Regards,
    Gary.
     
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  7. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Gary, it may not be interesting and how usefull it is for detail and I've not got a clue? You may have mentioned that you have got it. Schwere Abeilung 508 ( May-June 44) unit history.. Is it worth waiting for and buying?

    If not, then i will give it a miss?

    Regards,
    Stu
     
  8. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

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  9. Maczuga509

    Maczuga509 Member

  10. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Its not out of print has I'm aware of and Its news to me if it is? Thats the book i was talking about that I'm waiting for.

    I could say something else, but I will not.

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  11. Hi Stuart, thanks for posting so much from the 3. Pzgren book on here! I'm currently trying to find who was commanding I./Grenadier-Regiment 29 during the fighting at Anzio but the sources I've seen so far contradict each other. Does the "Stellenbesetzung" (p419) portion of the book list the leaders of the subordinate units?

    Thanks,
    Charlie
     
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  12. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Hi Charlie,

    No probs. Someone had to post them! Glad I did. Not sure without looking at the book which I don't have to hand. If it does not, then a Cab file that I have should do? It would be strange if not.

    Start a conversation with me, & let me know your email address if thats Ok?

    Let me have a look later on..

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Members cannot do that until they have made 5 posts.
     
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  14. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    He better get busy .I will start one.
     
  15. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Hi Charlie,

    here are the pages you are after I think? You did say page 419-423. STELLENBESTZUNG der 3. Inf. Div., 3. Inf. Div. (mot.), 3. Pz. Gren, Div. in the conversation that we have had. Ok, not the smartest piece of work on my phone, but they are legible. I'm guessing you can read German text? If not, then I would not mind (again if stolpi, or Itdan) could translate them when you both have some spare time?;) I've not a clue if all of them need translating? I think it would be most useful if they are? You two / three will know more than me of course.

    I'm not rushing seeing has this (thread has been going on for four years.) Probably get around to showing the War diaries of the 5 Grenadier Guards in time. Get a move on Stuart, and start showing them.

    Regards,
    Stu.
    P.419..jpg
    P.420..jpg
    P.421..jpg
    P.422..jpg
    P.423..jpg
     
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  16. Thank you for posting these! Here's a quick translation of the first page and some descriptions of the staff officer positions.

    STAFFING
    of the 3rd Inf.Div., 3rd Inf.Div. (mot.), 3rd Pz.Gren.Div.
    (incomplete)

    Preliminary Remarks:
    1."†" means that the individual was killed in action, died in captivity, or was executed in connection with 20.7.44.
    2. Po = Poland 1939 — Fr = France 1940 — Ru 1 = Russia 1941/42 — Ru 2 = Russia 1942/43 — It = Italy 1943/44 — We = West 1944/45
    3. (...): the bracket in front of the list of commanders in the war names the commanders before 1939.
    4. With the sources a distinction between Kommandeurs and Führers cannot be made. (I believe the difference between a Kommandeur and a Führer is rank. For example a Hauptmann/Captain leading a battalion would be a Bataillonsführer, while a Major would be a Bataillonskommandeur. I am unsure if that is correct as I can't find any definitive documentation.)
    5. "Brandenburger Kreuz und Quer" (another book about the division) brings additions and corrections.

    1. Generalstabsoffizier (I a) = First General Staff Officer, Chief of Operations
    2. Generalstabsoffizier (I b) = Second General Staff Officer, Quartermaster
    O 1 = First Assistant Adjutant (assistant to Chief of Operations)
    O 2 = Second Assistant Adjutant (assistant to Quartermaster)
    Div.Adjutant (II a) = Division Adjutant (Commissioned Officer)
    Abt. III = Division Judge Advocate
    Abt. IV a = Division Assistant Adjutant
    Abt. IV b = Division Surgeon
    Abt. IV c = Division Veterinarian
    Abt. IV d = Division Chaplain
    Abt. V = Division Vehicle Officer
     
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  17. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Kommandeur = has the appropriate rank that entitles him to leadership
    Führer = has the appropriate competence and is charged with leadership

    There is the addition of "charged with command/mit der Führung beauftragt" for commanding officers. This was a kind of probationary period before being promoted to "commanding officer", which was independent of corresponding (rankwise) promotions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
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  18. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.


    Charlie,
    The book "Branden burger Kreuz und Quer"... Is it any good? Also, who is by. I don't know of it.

    You must have it I'm thinking?

    Thanks for the translation.

    Edit: Is that the full title... Also, where did you get it from? Germany?

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2023

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