1st Canadian Army Signals

Discussion in 'Canadian' started by Buck-Compton, May 16, 2022.

  1. Buck-Compton

    Buck-Compton Junior Member

    Hello Guys,

    I have landed at the subject of the 1st Canadian Army Signals. I have found a large list of weekly field return officers for this unit. I also came across http://www.rcsigs.ca which is made by ww2talk member Pronto91 which helped me to understand this unit but not to fully comprehend the organisation. I have sent Pronto91 a PM but he hasn't replied so far.

    So what I have come to understand from the earlier mentioned documents is the following:

    - 1st Canadian Army Signals is a battalion sized unit.
    - It consists out of 4 company's
    - I assume all other units are distributed across these 4 company's?

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    Can you confirm or deny my assumptions and are you all able to explain how all other sections where incorporated in to the organisation of this unit?

    Cheers,

    Remi
     
  2. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    The larger Formation HQs Signals Units had what you might call a modular organisation. For Corps Sigs and above there was a central structure, which would be the Companies you've found note of, to which would be added a number of 'Sections' (think of them as Platoon sized subunits). The number and types of Sections did evolve as the war in general went on. I'm just about able to comprehend Divisional level signals, and have a passing knowledge of corps sigs. I cannot pretend to have any knowledge of Army Signals (British or Canadian).

    A format for Canadian signals units can be seen in the document outlining the organisation of First Canadian Army, and you'll see how many Sections are involved.

    https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/t...yhistory/dhh/reports/cmhq-reports/cmhq168.pdf

    Also that only covers things up to late 1943, and there were changes during the campaign. A lot of the Canadian WEs are online, but they are not collated, being spread out over multiple reels on the Canadiana Heritage website. They should have the relevant WEs and the overview for Army Sigs should be in the last issued WE for it.

    Gary
     
  3. Buck-Compton

    Buck-Compton Junior Member

    Gary Kennedy thanks for your help. Where can I find those WE's?

    Cheers Remi
     
  4. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    The war diary for First Canadian Army Signals begins here at Heritage Canadiana:

    War diaries : T-21311 - Héritage

    It continues over at least five rebels that average around 1500 pages. There should be information here that will help.
     
  5. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Hi Remi,

    Sorry I couldn’t respond sooner to help sort this out. It is definitely confusing with the higher order formations as they didn’t stick to a strict organization.

    Gary has the right of it in that there was a main organization with the companies and headquarters as you’ve discovered to which were added some core elements but also whatever section size elements required to support the formation. These additional elements had establishments of their own and therefore were added to the main unit by inclusion on an administrative side more so than a traditional order of battle. To make matters worse, sometimes the units reported individually and sometimes their returns were grouped with the larger organization.

    To look into this essentially requires you to consider such formations from multiple angles. I’ve done my best to try and consolidate the information so hopefully you don’t have to range too far to find what you’re looking for. The key article to focus on from the website is Royal Canadian Corps of Signals - Second World War Organization - RCSigs.ca.

    See The Canadian army overseas Signals composition for a breakdown of the various units during the war. You can click on any of the captured time frames defined out what formations “owned“ units at various times. Where units are "grouped", these are captured as part of each formation's main section.

    For the war establishments see the separate section specifically on war establishments. I’ve captured as many as I could find and I believe the list and data is quite complete. You can use the unit composition section to target the proper establishments which correspond to the various sections. The different iterations of the establishment are captured including updates and changes which will allow you to zero in on any particular time frame that you’re interested in. The naming isn't clear but Headquarters Signals (CDN III/312) - RCSigs.ca is the main unit.

    Finally, depending on how deep you want to go. You’ll have to look at the war diaries themselves which are available at the link provided in post #4 Dryan67.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2022
    Chris C likes this.
  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Remi,

    It's not precise by any means, I'd recommend you start with the following reels;

    https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c4890

    https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c4891

    https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c4892

    They 'sort of' cover late 1943 into the immediate post-war months. There is no central index I'm afraid and it is simply a matter of ploughing through and trying to spot what interests you. Things to note, if you're looking at First Canadian Army in Northwest Europe, you'll be after War Establishments with a reference starting II/ or III/ - all V/ WEs are for forces in Canada. Also the dates are not in order, you can start a file at late 1945 and find it either goes back into 1944, or just jumps to a random date.

    Gary
     
  7. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Gary, Please see my post above. All the Canadian Signals WD have been sorted and organized. No need to dig though the raw files unless one is a gluten for punishment.

    Canadian Army Overseas - War Establishments - RCSigs.ca
     
  8. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Yes, I recalled Remi had asked about other Canadian WEs in other posts (HQs and AGRAs) and I'd not gotten around to giving him the general location. (And yes, I have trawled through those 5000+ page reels and agree about the punishment part!).

    Gary
     
    Pronto91 likes this.
  9. Buck-Compton

    Buck-Compton Junior Member

    dryan67 thank you, I was allready aware of them. I used your excel sheet to sift out all units which are of relevance to me. I downloaded them already and digitised them to PDF's. I was also able to find a website who had colored photo's of the war diaries. I'm now at the point of working trough those diaries to understand the order of battle of all those units, how where they composed, who where their commanders etc etc. Beyond that I'm planning to plot all unit movements and positions in date and time on the original gsgs maps.

    Gary Kennedy Thank you for those links I will look in to that if Pronto91 answer doesn't cover my search.

    Pronto91 I had a look at your site. From what I was able to understand from the files shown is that the 4 company's where a construction coy, two operating and maintenance coys and a separate artillery coy. I also understood it shows what equipment en personnel each company was provided with. I do wonder if there is a way to figure out how the sections where distributed across these companies?

    Cheers,

    Remi
     
    dryan67 likes this.

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