HMT Thorbryn and landing craft lost on 19th August 1941

According to contemporary documents that I have, 'A' Lighter A.14 struck a mine whilst berthing on the morning of 12 August. This occured "200 yds off SOUTH SHORE near the distillery. ... The mine is thought to be one of those dropped during the raid at 0400 hrs 20 July"

'A' Lighters were doing regular shuttle runs to/from Matruh with 110-120 tons load.

On 14 August, it was reported the Second in Command of A.14 had subsequently died of his injuries suffered 2 days earlier. Divers reported much of the cargo could be salvaged (sugar and beans) but the 2 3.7" barrels were beyond repair.

 

From the same series of documents, Thorbryn was towing/escorting (different word on different document) two 'D' Lighters. Thorbryn sunk, the two 'D' Lighters are reported as drifting towards enemy held coastline. A vessel written up as "F1" was sent out to scoop up any survivors but hit a mine by the harbour mouth and sunk too. No other losses are noted.

Nowhere is there any mention of "LCT 12" or "LCM 25". My impression is that the 'D' Lighters were barge-like vessels for transfering freight from warships in harbour to dockside to save the warship from having to berth. Tobruk had a small number of these 'Lighter' (some noted as small, some bigger) and due to recent losses, these two 'D' Lighters were being brought in as replacements.

Takeaway points, in my previous post, the vessel lost on 12 August was noted as "A.14" an "A Lighter". Steve49 has an "A Lighter" is an LCT: A.14 = LCT14. However, an LCT cannot be both an "A Lighter" and a "D Lighter" surely. So, either the reference to LCT12 being towed by Thorbryn is in error, or it wasn't LCT14 lost on 12 August. Take your pick.

Additionally, if "F1" (whatever that was) was the only other vessel lost with Thorbryn, then either the British were mistaken about it hitting a mine or the Germans/Italians that they bombed it.

 

Mark

(see Australian OH: "Greece")

Picture attached. HMS Glengyle seems to have carried them. Photograph caption reads:

A beached British landing barge (D lighter) is being used by a group of German Afrika Korps ...

They are listed as LCM here: British vessels lost at sea in World War 2 - landing ships and craft, LSI, LST, LCT, LCG, LCV, LCVP etc

All the best

Andreas

 

Hi Gents,

Just to confirm.

A Lighter = Landing Craft Tank
D Lighter = Landing Craft Mechanised
R Lighter = Lighter Craft Personnel

Regarding the events of the 19th August. I think the escort was towing the disabled LCT12 (A12) and two LCM ( Lighters), one of which was probably LCM25. I hope to visit Kew towards the end of the month (as long the 'C' thing doesn't close things down or cause my flight to be cancelled), so hopefully ADM358/3544 will provide some more information.

Regards,

Steve

 

Thanks.

Thanks.

Thorbryn was escorting/towing two D Lighters. It was not escorting/towing a third vessel. Your thoughts about LCT12 do not accord with contemporary evidence. Moreover, disabled A Lighters were towed out of Tobruk for repair, not in.

In the documents I have, the A Lighters are treated with a great deal of attention as they were, at that time, key to the maintenance of the Tobruk force. Each vessel and every movement was recorded individually in/out Tobruk, in/out Matruh. There is no mention of LCT12 or an A Lighter A.12 around that timeframe. Going to and fro a few weeks scanning quickly a few pages, I see A.1, A.2, A.7, A.8, A.9, A.10, A.11, A.13, A.14, A.17 and A.18 recorded.

 

Hi MarkN,

As mentioned earlier in this thread

LCT12(A12) was badly damaged alongside No3 Pier on 1st June 1941.

LCT14(A14) was lost after a mine strike on 11th August 1941.

Thorgryn was definitely lost with two LCM (D-Lighters) on 19th August.

The above three are all listed in ADM199/799. Incidentally the 'F.1' which was also lost on the 19th, was a schooner.

I'm not sure if the disabled LCT12 was being towed from Tobruk for repair on the 19th. The evidence I've seen from various sources is conflicting. It's noted as being a total loss after the fire, but also being lost to an air attack on the 19th. Hopefully further research will answer this question.

Regards,

Steve

 

Aha! 1 June...

From my documents, entry for 1 June:

Lighter A.12 carrying 95 tons petrol whilst berthed alongside No.3 jetty, during the process of unloading burst into flames. Cause of fire unknown, result total loss. Loss of petrol about 80 tons. Casualties 3.​

So, badly damaged or total loss?

See my post above.

In this thread you have repeatedly questionned the veracity/accuracy of the info in that file.

Which contemporary document shows A.12 in operation after 1June and more specifically having any involvement on 19 August?

 

Circling back to clarify this.

And

Thorbryn was towing/escorting a pair of D Lighters from Matruh to Tobruk.

In otherwords, it was caught on its way into Tobruk not whilst it was leaving on its way to Alexandria.

 

Daily Naval Reports from Tobruk 17, 18, 19 and 20 August covering the period.



Daily sitrep from SNOIS to C-in-C regarding 19 Nov.



War diary entries of the formation contolling the port of Tobruck for 1 June (referencing A12 loss) and 19 August (referencing Thorbryn events)

 

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the information regarding the direction of travel of Thorbryn. Yes in that case it would seem to rule out the presence of LCT12. It would have been highly unlikely that the disabled LCT12 would have been taken to Matruh, to be taken back Tobruk.

I'm not to sure why you've taken to sarcastically quote my posts back at me. If you circle back to the start of this thread, I've only been trying to confirm which vessels were sunk and on which where the casualties who were lost on the 19th August 1941. With conflicting information available, I've posed different theories, which is surely the purpose of a research forum. With some sources, including uboat.net and the Gesamtverluste 1939- 1945 loss list, saying that LCT12 was lost on the 19th August, I had to consider it could have been lost on that date.

'In this thread you have repeatedly questionned the veracity/accuracy of the info in that file'

One is allowed to ask questions. From my earlier research into the Dieppe raid, I've come across enough contemporary documents that turned out to be inaccurate, to know that you can't always trust even a primary source. So I like to keep an open mind and ask questions where required.

Thanks again for the information regarding the direction Thorbyrn was sailing.

Regards,

Steve

 

???

Sarcastic?

It is common practice to quote what one is responding to.

An endeavor which I am trying to assist you with by presenting contemporary evidence available to me.

I am not commenting on your questions, I am pointing out that you yourself have questioned that document's helpfulness and thus, perhaps, it should not be seen as the go-to reference point.

Very true. Which is why I have been very clear in what the documents I have state and have made no attempt to reinterpret them (ie. I write A.14 not LCT14) nor argue that they are the sole source of historical provenance. People make mistakes.

Nevertheless, one can make judgement calls when a range of documents are available hence why I posted the Naval Reports covering a four day period and supported it with two further documents for the event concerned. The balance of probability suggests A.12 played no part whatsoever on 19 August. One document may have missed it, but not all the documents around the period.

From contemporary documentary evidence from the British side, Thorbryn was bombed, schooner "F1" hit a mine and a pair of D Lighters were last seen drifting towards German held coastline.

From contemporary documantary evidence from the German side (like Andreas I too have DAK and PzArmee.Afrika documents), the story is a bit different but does not positively refute any of the above.

 

I'm in Kew next week and can maybe pull ADM358/3544. No promises.

All the best

Andreas

 

Thanks, I should be there on the 21st, so don't worry if you can't.

Regards,

Steve

 

Regarding the events of this day. ADM358/3976 confirms that HMT Thorbryn was towing two D-Lighters, identified from ADM358/3516 and ADM358/3544 as LCM16 and LCM25 (though ADM358/3544 says that the LCM's were lost on the 18th). Though randomly one of the survivors from Thorbryn, says that he drifted ashore in an 'TLC' (the original Royal Navy abbreviation for a Tank Landing Craft, later reclassified as a Landing Craft Tank).

The losses resulted in the following casualties.

HMT Thorbryn
2 Officers and 6 OR killed;

CHISHOLM, Walter B, Ty/Lieutenant, RNVR, MPK [ChM]
GRAVES, Bernard, Leading Steward, RNPS, LT/LX 30051, MPK [LowM]
GRONDLAND, Birgen S, Stoker, RNPS, LT/KX 116044, MPK [LowM]
O'SHEA, Douglas W, Ordinary Telegraphist, C/JX 206826, MPK [ChM]
RICHARDSON, Ronald F, Able Seaman, C/JX 167704, MPK [ChM]
ROSS, Colin, Ordinary Seaman Cook, RNPS, LT/JX 207737, MPK [LowM]
SKIPPER, George E, Ordinary Seaman, RNPS, LT/JX 174693, MPK [LowM]
WILSON, Dudley C, Ty/Lieutenant, RNVR, killed [LowM]

Plus 3 Officers and 16 OR POW

LCM16 (D16)
1 OR killed;

MacDONALD, Angus N J, Seaman, RNR, D/X 10186B (killed)

Plus Skpr John J. Fortune RNR and 7 OR POW

LCM25 (D25)
1 Officer killed;

JACKSON, Patrick D, Ty/Skipper, RNR (killed, suffered a severe head wound from strafing aircraft and died soon afterwards)

Plus 7 OR POW

Regarding the identity of the attackers, ADM358/3976 says that HMT Thorbryn was attacked by four Ju88's at 08:30, which scored two bomb hits.

Regards,

Steve

 

Thanks Steve, my visit came to nought due to work commitments.

The Ju 88s seem quite wrong, based on German records. Transcription error? The German monthly report identifies II./Stg2 as attacker, i.e. Ju 87 Stuka. They note two separate attacks, first at 0730 hours (British 0830) sinking of a 1,500t transporter through several direct hits, 8 ea SD and SC250, and then at 0812 hours a 500t tug with 6 ea SD and SC250 with a direct hit.

They also note that 4 officers and 27 men made it to shore where they were captured by Italians after brief attempts to resist.

All the best

Andreas