Battle for the Teutoburger Ridge, April 1945.

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by JonDodson, May 17, 2016.

  1. Bayonet Productions

    Bayonet Productions Lead Researcher

    Hello,

    Has there ever been a comprehensive order of battle formed for the German units that made up the forces in this engagement other than 'Officer Cadets and Instructors'?

    V/R
    Chris
     
  2. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Chris - I can't help you with the provision of a full orbat but the principal forces were found from Division Nr.471 and comprised two Kampfgruppen, both led by holders of the Knight’s Cross: the first was commanded by Oberstleutnant Knaust (complete with prosthetic right leg), who commanded a Kampfgruppe of infantry and artillery replacements; the second was commanded by Oberstleutnant Lier, who led non-commissioned officer (NCO) candidates from his Heeres-Unteroffiziers-Schule 11 Hannover (also known as Unteroffizierschule Jauer). Also present were NCO trainees from the Heeres-Unteroffiziers-Schule für Nebeltruppen Celle commanded by Oberst Hahnke.

    If you are interested, I can give you the orbat of Division Nr.471, but other than the Kampfgruppen listed above I couldn't tell you which of the division's units had been involved in the defence of Ibbenbueren. The answer is probably bits and pieces of all of them.
     
  3. Bayonet Productions

    Bayonet Productions Lead Researcher

    JDKR- Thank you! I have heard various SS Cadets, just Cadets etc.. I think I should be able to find ID 471 order of battle unless you have one for April 45?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  4. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    The 471. Div. was the staff with subordinated units of various orgins
    The composition of these units was subject to constant fluctuations. The various sub-units were consequently described as a "hodgepodge of odds and ends".
    Here some extracts from 8th Corps IntSum
    IMG_0059.png IMG_0060.png IMG_0065.png
     
  5. Bayonet Productions

    Bayonet Productions Lead Researcher

    So I assume it was a mix of these units as they were broken up after leaving Division Deneke? Were they renamed Deneke after March 45 or did they go back to 471? Unless the individual units were no longer subordinate to the division since KGs were formed.

    So the first hand accounts of SS Cadets is a misrepresentation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  6. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    It is rather as JDKR wrote: Staff Division No. 471 with Kampfgruppen Knaust and Lier.
    And these Kampfgruppen consisted of whatever was available at the time - and that changed almost daily in some form or another....
    The Division Deneke was formed from replacement units of the 471st, but was already transported to HG Weichsel in January.
    Lexikon der Wehrmacht

    Edit:
    Division No. 471 (not 471st Division!) was a so-called shadow division that provided replacement troops for field divisions. It was transported to the Western Front in March 45 as part of the "Goten-Bewegung" under Lieutenant General Ernst Haeckel (Kdr. since February 45).
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Compostion KG Knaust, according to 8th Corps IntSum, 2. April
    IMG_0040.png
     
  8. Bayonet Productions

    Bayonet Productions Lead Researcher

    KG Knaust was formed from 490th Infantry Division Lexikon der Wehrmacht
    The same is said for KG Lier. ?
     
  9. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Seems so:
    Lt. Col. Friedrich Lier
    Promoted to lieutenant colonel on 1 January 1945, he was entrusted with the command of the Jauer Army NCO School in Hanover at the beginning of March 1945. Here he set up the "Kampfgruppe Lier", a unit of 4,000 officer and non-commissioned officer trainees deployed as part of the 490th Infantry Division. For the defensive achievements of his unit at the Teuteburg Forest and near Sage, he was awarded the Oak Leaves on 8 May 1945.
    Lier


    Division No. 490 (WK X) also a „shadow-Division“

    Kdr.: 1. April 1945 Generalmajor Hermann-Heinrich Behrend
    *1.11.1944 (AHA confirmation of 6.1.1945) in Neumünster, WK X, in place of Div. No. 190, which had been transferred to the Netherlands in September.

    On 27 March 1945, the division was brought forward to the Weser River as part of the Westgoten movement;
    Fp. Numbers received the Gren. Ers. Rgter. 30 and 480 and the Art. Ers. Abt. 20 and 30, not Rgt. 520 in Denmark. The Gren. Rgt. 480 was named here for the first time, perhaps formed from the formations mobilised at the same time:
    Army NCO School for Infantry 10 Eutin (856 men).
    ROB Lehrgang Lübeck (1303 men).
    (unconfirmed)

    Subordination:
    Apr. 45: LXXXVI AK; 1st Fallsch. Army; Ob. Nordwest
    EHRI - Division Nr. 490

    The problem with the two divisions (471/490) is that they were never at full strength and their units were often intermixed. In late April the Div 490 was finally subordinated to Div 471 in the Oldenburg area...
     
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  10. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Guenther Wegmann in his book Das Kriegsende zwischen Ems und Weser 1945 provides the following orbat for Division Nr. 471:

    Grenadier-Ausbildung-Rgt.551
    Artillerie-Ausbildung-Abt.19
    PzPionier.Btl.19
    Nachrichtung-Ausbildung-Abt.13
    Landeschuetzen-Ausbildung-Btl.13
    Lehrstab XI (Bergen) with ROB-Lehrgang
    Offiziers-Nachwuchs-Abt. Artillerie 31 (Braunschweig)
    Heeres-Unteroffiziers-Schule (HUS) für Nebeltruppen Celle*
    HUS 11 Hannover*

    My understanding is that Division Nr.471 was split in its deployment between the West and East Fronts. I have put an * against those that are known to have been on the West Front. I have not come across any of the other units listed above so perhaps they deployed to the East.

    For a variety of reasons, many British sources like to assert that Waffen-SS were present. They were definitely not present at Ibbenbueren.

    As an aside, the fighting 'qualities' of a Landeschuetzen-Ausbildung-Btl. would have been off the bottom of any scale and it is entirely possible that it had virtually no weapons.

    Olli - what was an Offiziers-Nachwuchs-Abt.?
     
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  11. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    As far as I understand it: Officer candidates directly from the schools, which then formed the so-called Nachwuchs-Abteilungen
    source: https://d-nb.info/975984101/34

    BTW: The OrBats should not be interpreted too narrowly: In April, EVERYTHING was in flux and there was unimaginable chaos. At times the fluctuation took on grotesque forms.
    As a rule of thumb, you can assume that the respective combat group commanders have always assembled their soldiers and scarce assets in such a way as seemed opportune depending on the situation: During the „Goetterdaemmerung“, they finally reverted to classic „Auftragstaktik“.

    I have got into the habit of determining the composition of the units on a daily basis using the IntSums – if possible (The footnotes in the IntSums sometimes show complete resignation, because it seemed that pretty much every PoW came from a different unit)

    Incidentally, there are several reasons for the relatively numerous Waffen-SS reports:
    1) people confused the black Panzer uniforms
    2) the camouflage uniforms were confused: Oak leaves= SS, Splinter= Army
    3) stragglers from various SS training units
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  12. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    BR, a former member of the 3rd Mons, involved at Teutoburger Ridge, now deceased, always referred of the enemy forces to me as a collection force of officer cadets. Post #6.

    Must say I have never heard of the Waffen SS being involved
     
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  13. Bayonet Productions

    Bayonet Productions Lead Researcher

    Peter White- With the Jocks- Pg 267 - "a fanatical stand was being made by a formation of SS battle school cadets from a training center at Hanover" he goes on to refer to them as SS during the entire chapter (later citing an estimate of 300) to include an account of a face to face meeting with one. He references a "gray green uniform", (wool-lack of camouflage) and a "forage cap" "He was very young" "Frank and I were remarkably fortunate he had not shown himself as fanatical as some of his fellow SS officer cadets". So It very well could be a misidentification, however he would had to have seen insignia since he had no camouflage mentioned. That said I have noticed every time "fanatical" is mentioned in British accounts it always follows with SS. As the Heer just surrendered ;)

    So even with a face to face meeting he still could of misidentified him possibly. If he did not misidentify him that leads to the question what SS officer school are they from?

    The above book is where I heard SS, when I first read of this battle when researching the 52nd at Bremen. I am aware of the fluid situation in the Weser area. I do know the SS 18th and 12th Ausbildungs were active around Rheine and Bremen. However I was unaware or could not find any solid link to SS sent from Hanover.

    As far as 471- as I read it- was broken up in late March and Lexicon gives no further explanation. The KG was formed as already stated from remnants of .490 which you also see elements credited at Bremen as well. As I understand it, it is more probable to use .490 as a designation for the KGs "parent unit" - however the overall make up was a mix of Ausb. and most likely had men from various branches in the form of Alarm abt. (?) but the overall contingent were from Heer personnel to include Heer Ausbildungs and not SS.

    Thank you both it has been informative.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  14. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Great book but I’m afraid White was wrong and reinforces my point regarding mention of Waffen-SS whenever the fighting was tough.

    SS-A.u.E.Btl. 18 were present in Bremen as part of Korps Ems while SS-A.u.E.Btl.12 HJ fought principally on the Weser and Aller .
     
  15. JonDodson

    JonDodson Member

    Thankyou all very much for the excellent contributions. The sort of details for which i do not really have a great aptitude.

    I went to the monument today with the thought that i might do a bit of spring-cleaning and a take a moment to reflect. However, everything was ship-shape. So again, i`d like to take the opportunity to thank whoever else is obviously making the time and effort. I took some photos.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. JonDodson

    JonDodson Member

    The thing with orbats is that it is; a) a topic that cannot be dealt with in a superficial manner, and b) i have always been more interested in the who did what and where, and if possible when (although at this point in time without eyewitness accounts, this is often no longer detemineable).
    It is about the blood and sweat under the poor bloody soldiers finger-nails and after two horrendous world wars, why are we still doing it?
    There is an excellent film made by a local film-maker Detlef Muckel called Leben und Sterben 45 (google search). I bought my copy from the tourist information in Ibbenbüren. Highly recommendable for anyone speaking german.
    Having asked Ray Griffiths (1.Her. LOB on that day) about company strengths, he stated 4 officers and 60 other ranks.
    A german survivor living in Ibbenbüren (Volkssturm, i think) reported that they were handed 5 rounds of rifle ammunition and then sent up into the woods.
     
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  17. M.holten

    M.holten New Member

    Hy Jon..a lot of thanks for this new informations!! I spent some weeks to "reeneuwed" the Map from Raymond, so i can nearly exactly interpret the positions from the Scots and the actons from 3. to 6 th april 1945 in this area.
    This fills a hole on Informatons in terms of the Operations of the right Flank after the Fightings in the Woods of Ibbenburen Ridge.
     
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  18. M.holten

    M.holten New Member

     
  19. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Some snippets
    The Kampfgruppe Lier is also called HUS Jauer/Hannover/11/XI, depending on the source.
    HUS 11 had been based in Jauer, Silesia, since 1942. In early 1945 it was called up to defend Steinau an der Oder, where it suffered heavy losses.
    In March, the remnants were transferred to Hannover/Wehrkreis XI, where they formed the core of Kampfgruppe Lier.

    The Volkssturm from Ibbenbüren occupied the Dörenther Berg and the road to Münster.
    Smaller Inf. units arrived from Hannover and from the Celle area and also took up positions at Dörenhter Berg.
    It was the ROB - Lehrgang Celle under Oberstleutnant Fastenrath. Manpower 800. This arrived on 01.04.1945 at the Riesenbecker Berg.

    The next day, officers of HUS Jauer (Hannover) and advance units of Ka.Gru. Lier (Staff??) arrived, in addition around 10 o'clock the first inspections of the Kraftf.Tr. Schule Hannover(Fahr-EuA.Abt. 11/Div. 471). (Left/right Münsterstraße- Dörenther Berg)

    Until the early morning of Monday arrived:
    11 inspections of the ROB- Lehrgang from Bergen (1400 men und Major Tadewald)
    7 inspections of the H.Nachsch.Tr.Schule Hannover (1000 men under Colonel Hanke)
    HUS Jauer (KG Lier) 700 men
    There also since 30.03.1945 the Volkssturm-Pi.Btl.Minden


    These units should have still been administratively under Div. 471 under Gen.Lt. Haeckel at the beginning of April, since Gen.Maj. Behrend was not appointed commander of Div. 490 until 17 April. (Since 1 April "entrusted with command" = In Wehrmacht German this means as much as "on trial").
    Also, if one knows that until May Gen.Lt. Haeckel always did the staff work, while Gen.Maj.Behrend led "from the front"....

    regards
    Olli
     
  20. JonDodson

    JonDodson Member

    Hi folks,

    M.holten: Hi Michael, very pleased to hear from you! Maybe it's time to meet up again and 'chew the cud' :) . Your opinions are always worth hearing.

    @lt.dan: incredible, thankyou!
     

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