The Battle of Britain was not won by the Few

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by davidbfpo, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    An article that appeared via twitter today. The author is Philip O'Brien and his slim bio states:
    It is a short article and as a "taster" here are the three opening passages:
    Link: The Battle of Britain was not won by the Few | Phillips O’Brien | The Critic Magazine

    A month ago he wrote another article, which starts to critique war films using Operation Mincemeat as an example. See: The myth of the plucky Brit | Phillips O’Brien | The Critic Magazine

    I expect there could be other threads that pose such questions, but I didn't look for an alternative home.
     
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  2. P-Squared

    P-Squared Well-Known Member

    I find this 'revisionist' stuff really interesting - yes, we should continue to question the 'standard line' on history, that's really what it's all about. (I despair at folks who, having read 'a' book, think that's the answer to a particular campaign, battle or war - the answer is to read widely and then come to a conclusion.) However, we also need to bear in mind that we 'question' this stuff often with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, able to marshal all the information now available (on both sides.) Fear of the German armed forces was not unwarranted after their crashing successes in 1939 and 1940; likewise, the Luftwaffe appeared to present a clear and present danger and I'm sure few, if any, were sure of victory in July 1940. It can be argued that it was a close run thing - 'maintenance of the aim' is a key principle of war and one Goering absolutely failed to apply - had he done so it's possible that the Battle could have turned out differently, though whether or not the Germans could have successfully crossed the Channel becomes another debate! :)
    I'll certainly read O'Brien's articles and thanks for posting the links - on the face of it, his comments ref the BoB are not unreasonable (although at the time the ME109, for example, was a very capable aircraft of course); but, it's really a case of what the respective sides KNEW (or thought they knew) at the time which has to be borne in mind.
     
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  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Assume done for attention seeking headline.
    Those of us with an interest know that all the service and civilians were involved in one shape or another.
    Those without an interest dont care
    After 80 plus years it is easy to look back and take things apart.
     
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  4. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    At least as far as the assessment of the German side is concerned, the man is quite right: Really consistent war armament actually began in 1943 at the earliest

    But history is always ambivalent:
    On the one hand, there are the traditional narratives of those who (subjectively) experienced it themselves: That is the history in the heads
    In the perception of the time, it was indeed the case that the Wehrmacht had won the war on the continent within a very short time and now set about bombing GB to storm with its hitherto highly efficient Luftwaffe.
    The fact that in reality any prerequisites for an amphibious landing operation were missing, turned out in fact only long after the war.
    But by then the story had already been written in people's minds.

    If you ask a historically unsophisticated contemporary about the BoB, he will probably come up with a picture of a handful of pilots in Spitfires, who threw themselves against huge German bomber streams.......

    Then there are the subsequently compiled results of historians, which provide (halfway) objective facts: That is the history in the books.
    And it is a fact that GB used its resources much more consistently and efficiently than was the case on the German side.

    The performance of those who fought and suffered at that time does not diminish this in any way.....

    Regards
    Olli
     
  5. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    It goes even lower than that , the BoB was not won ( solely ) by the few, it was won by bomber command, by costal command , by training command, by the AC2 plonks and WAAF who peeled spuds , by the Navy , by the Army, the MN, the politicians , by the empire steadfastly behind “ the motherland “ by the factory workers and to the women and kids who said : “ you know what ? That ‘ere ‘Itler , he can just go and fuck himself “ It’s even more basic than strategy . The few is a myth in some respects , an understandable and even contemporaneously vital myth , but yes , it was not won by Sgt Jones and Spitfire P1234 alone and the seeds of victory were sewn long before. Plus the Nazis were dickheads on so so many levels both ideologically and intelligently . The leadership were fruitloops
     
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  6. P-Squared

    P-Squared Well-Known Member

    But, if you follow that argument, you’d say the same about every battle: El Alamein wasnt won by the Eight Army; Burma wasn’t liberated by XIV Army; the Bismark wasn’t sunk by the RN; etc. Of course, it’s not one single organisation, but Fighter Command was certainly on the pointy end of the spear.
     
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  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Another American Irishman with an axe to grind. There are plenty of Hollywood film myths that he could see to first rather than pick on some 1950s books and films appreciated by and featuring in many cases, those who had actually served.

    Bombed-out and impoverished post-war Britain needed to believe that that it had succeeded by excelling itself. Unfortunately, half the population still believes that the actions of eighty years ago continue to make them special today.
    I dare say that this chap's next book will deal with the failure of Market-Garden due to mechanical problems with Austin K5 lorries or has that already been done ?...:peepwalla:
     
  8. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    K5s and the Ronson Shermans
     
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Rich not sure there are many around who think that or even care about it now
     
  10. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    I hear what you’re saying but even there , statistically , bomber command and the Navy were getting whacked with a pointy stick much more than Fighter Command .
    So many like this author want a neat box answer. It’s never going to be like that
     
  11. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    To be fair, he does have a point about the plucky Brits myth. However, I'd much rather watch a movie involving clandestine shenanigans against the Germans than one about tens of thousands of trucks, cans of bully beef or belt buckles rolling off a production line.
     
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  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    One plucky Brit who went on to live here life after loosing her 7 hour old child

    info from Pete Wood

    MICHAELIS, ALAN JOHN

    Rank:
    Civilian
    Date of Death:
    29/06/1944
    Regiment/Service:
    Civilian War Dead

    Reporting Authority
    HARROW, URBAN DISTRICT
    Additional Information:
    Aged 7 hours; of 3 Kenton Lane, Kenton. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Railton Michaelis. Injured 28 June 1944, at 3 Kenton Lane; died at Harrow and Wealdstone Hospital.



    The baby's mother, Sylvia Michaelis, aged just 22, received multiple cuts and was treated at the same hospital.

    Obit:
    Michaelis Sylvia Passed away peacefully in Donnington House on April 13, 2012, aged 90 years. Sylvia was the beloved wife of Railton, to whom she had been married for 70 years. She was the loving mother to John, Linda, Kelvin and Colin as well as grandmother to 13 grandchildren, and great grandmother to 12 great grandchildren. Memorial Service to take place on Monday, April 30, 2012, in Chichester Baptist Church at 2.00 p.m.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The Germans needed command of the air to deal with the RN. If the RAF had been defeated then the RN would have faced the invasion. It was the threat of the RN that stopped an invasion.
     
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  14. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Did the Germans need command of the air to ensure the RAF would not sink their 4 knot flat bottomed barges
     
  15. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    He would be 77 years old today if he had lived. In the prime of his life during the swinging sixties.
     
  16. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    There are also numerous examples of plucky Dutch, plucky French, plucky Poles, plucky Belgians, plucky Czechs etc. "Pluckiness" was not a uniquely British trait, as some might have us believe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
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  17. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Nothing new here. Philip Bungay's A most dangerous enemy made the same case in the 1990s. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Most-Dangerous-Enemy-History-Britain-ebook/dp/B0071B705O They are both correct. The British gave the appearance of being the amateurish plucky underdog and the Germans the efficient rational masterrace.
    But this was the battle that the British had been preparing to fight since the mid 1930s, and the numbers really were against the Luftwaffe. The Germans needed to shoot down three British fighter aircraft for each German aircraft lost just to break even.
     
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  18. EmpireUmpire

    EmpireUmpire .........

    Let's be honest, what little remains of British Nationalism seems to centre on events like the Battle of Britain, white cliffs of Dover, Vera Lynn etc. Any reasonable attempt to question wartime and post war myths will likely be met by hostility. After 80 years of the same narrative, I think the British would rather believe familiar lies than question the uncomfortable truth.

    I am not saying that everything is a lie and it all needs to be picked apart. I would however, like to see a decline in the persistence of wartime propaganda.
     
  19. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I'd quite like to see a decline in the persistence and perniciousness of modern propaganda but I'm not stupid enough to hold my breath...
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
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  20. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Yes I know others found it difficult but this thread is about Great Britain
    and again the nice under current of Brit bashing goes on
     
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