12th Battalion Devonshire Regiment

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by lineman, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Fallinghunter,

    I'm slow off the mark as David above covers it quite well. It could be CN 148 rather than 140 as you say which flew out of RAF Rivenhall. There is an Appendix in the 6th Airlanding Brigade WD (scroll down) which attempts to show what occurred with 12th Devon gliders on Op Varsity. CN 148 was 'C' Coy, but oddly they also place it with 'A' Coy which I think is a mistake.

    The stills shown in this post I believe were taken at RAF Rivenhall. So probably a Div HQ glider in the CN 317-342 range. Not sure who the cine-man was. There are other scenes shot at Rivenhall buried in the following well known compilations:

    OPERATION VARSITY : Airborne Invasion East of the Rhine, March 24th 1945 (rough assembly and offcuts) [Main Title]

    Invasion Aircraft (1945) - British Pathe

    Sgt. Harry Oates and partner Sgt. Jim Chriistie both AFPU took footage and photos of the 12th Devon before takeoff but were they at Rivenhall? I think they flew on a HQ Coy glider with CO Major Nation which is another story entirely.

    Regards ...
     
    David Woods and brithm like this.
  2. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Excellent, thanks David, I had assumed those were C Coy gliders as they were detached from the Bn to Div and 6 gliders fits a Glider Company Orbat, but corroborating that has been hard going!
     
  3. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Hi there, I'm just coming in late into this thread, how would I get acees to the 12 Devon nominal roll for Op Varsity? I'm doing a research project on RAF Rivenhall and putting names to the unit would be brilliant...
     
  4. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    That's gold dust, thanks Cee.

    For the 148 CN, if you watch the film through you can make out it's the 8 instead of 0, thought it was 0 too at first!

    6th Airlanding Brigade WD is really helpful and I've not seen before - it does have some inaccuracies as you say - C Coy I'm sure flew from Rivenhall - I'm not sure whether it was D or B Coy along with elements of SP Coy. For the latter, the famous image of the 6 pounder getting set up clearly has 141 on the side which one would have to assume flew in glider CN 141 (Rivenhall) - https://twitter.com/rgpoulussen/status/1242721812850540544

    There is an account in The Last Drop (page 184) of Lt Nuttall, B Coy being on a glider who's tow rope broke on take off but was hooked up again at the end - this is potentially described in official accounts as CN 133. RAF 295 Squadron's War Diary also corroborates the 2 tugs being used at that time but don't mention CN - the timing though would fit with CN 133 at Rivenhall.

    Thanks for the film links, I've been poring over those for weeks! So much in there that I've been blind to without knowing the finer detail, a lot of it from these posts.
     
    David Woods and Cee like this.
  5. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Fallinghunter,

    Sorry I don't have the 12th Devons nominal roll for Varsity. There are many Officer names listed in the Varsity Orbat on the Pegasus Archive. That's an interesting theory regarding the number chalked on the 6 pounder in photo. If true it would have been with the CNs132-146 block of gliders out of Rivenhall headed for LZ 'R'. Alex and alberk pointed out the gun location in Hamminkeln in this thread.

    There's a fair amount of footage taken at RAF Rivenhall before takeoff including scenes of the gliders and aircraft being lined up. Various shots as well of men from the Devons, RUR and Div. HQ before boarding their gliders. I think they catch the very first Horsa, Chalk 121, as it leaves with the sun just rising. Unfortunately the number can't quite be made out because of poor light.

    Major-General Bols was on a glider out of Rivenhall but I am not sure which. Probably one of the early ones in the 315-342 range. His glider was caught on film enroute to Germany. It was said to have landed no more than 100 yards from Kopenhof farm which became The 6th Airborne Division HQ. It may be the glider just to the east of the farm which shows up in numerous scenes, but have never been able to confirm.

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
    David Woods and BrianHall1963 like this.
  6. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Thanks Cee

    I've been able to cross reference from a great book 'Wot! No Engines?' (Alan Cooper) along with 'The Last Drop' (Stephen Wright) that glider CN 140 was flown by F/Lt Ken Scolding RAF Sgt Nick Nicholson - in their narrative they describe their load as including a 6 pounder and jeep. To me that would put CN141 in a group of gliders carrying at least one of the Anti Tank Plt's, Support Company 12 Devons (corroborated from the great link you shared the other the day Headquarters, 6th Airlanding Brigade ). If you get the footage direct from the National archives it's much cleaner you can see CN142 and CN141 as the pans around from about 2 mins into it as well, just for interest.

    The National Archive film also allows you to make out CN121 more clearly as it is towed by by Wing Comd Angell in 8E S as the first to leave Rivenhall. The number 121 is also chalked onto the fuselage of the Stirling which helps corroborate too.

    I'm still going through the Div HQ footage to see what I can draw out, at the moment I think CN315 and CN316 were the 2 defence platoons with Maj Gen Bols in CN317 and the media team in CN318 (thanks for the steer of the photo on the LZ of that one). CN316 broke its tow rope between the French coast and the Rhine according to the Air Landing Bde link you shared yesterday. In 'Wot! No Engines?' Lt Col W J Kirwan-Taylor says that he took off in a glider with Def Plt 2 marked Smiling Sylvia (which appears in the footage), then goes on to say how the other defence platoon didn't arrive which corroborates the broken tow rope. At the moment my theory that CN318 is the media glider with Maj Gen Bols in CN317, where his glider is claimed to have been filmed from the cockpit of the glider behind and that would be the natural order of march - or flight in this case! CN317 appears in the footage at Rivenhall (6 mins 5 secs), just as the clip starts there is a US soldier boarding which one would have to assume would be Divisional liaison.

    It was Reddevon who mentioned the Bn Nominal Roll - On the Rhine crossing Captain Carroll of the 12th Devons states he was in glider 155 along with Brigadier.R.H.Bellamy along with 6th Airlanding Brigade HQ piloted by Lt Col Iain Murry co of the glider wing, is there any info to verify the passengers in gliders as Captain Carroll does not appear on the Rhine crossing Nominal roll - which I take it is the officer orbat you mention - shame! At the moment the names of OR's mostly comes from the CWG documents and Roll of Honour, I'd be really chuffed if anyone is able to share names of those in the footage or photos
     
    David Woods and Cee like this.
  7. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi FH,

    I made a few suggestions thinking it could potentially be material to explore but I see you are way ahead of me. That's great stuff! I agree there are many missing names of men who arrived by glider and parachute on Op Varsity. I would like to know for instance which glider Brigadier Faithfull, Commander Royal Artillery, was on. But it still may not be enough to tie him to a particular crash on LZ 'P'.

    The Varsity Orbat is located here - scroll down to reach the the 12th Devons which does not appear complete? Were the Anti-tank Platoons associated with the Support Coy for Varsity? A few group photos were taken in December 1944 which name them as 25th and 26th Pl (A/Tk). For Normandy they were said to be part of 'E' Coy which also included the MMG Platoons.

    In the Varsity Orbat the MMG Platoon are now with the Support Coy along with Mortars but doesn't mention the Anti-tank Platoons. Most of the Support Coy flew out of RAF Matching. However, the 6 AL Bde HQ chart does claim CNs 139-141 belong to the Support Coy which might explain the gun carrying gliders out of Rivenhall. Also Coys 'A' to 'D' on Varsity were assigned 7 gliders each. Was 'B' Coy part of the CN 132-146 block also - not sure?

    I'm wondering now if Marsland Gander has named the Defence Platoon on his glider correctly? Do you have his book "After These Many Quests" in the digital form if not I'll send along. It is quite brilliant but I think he got some of the airfields wrong. That's very good info on "Smiling Sylvia" and some of your other theories are very interesting. The possibility that an American soldier is seen entering CN 317 is very intriguing.

    Regards ...

    Edit: Made a few changes but still a bit confused.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
    David Woods likes this.
  8. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Thanks Cee,

    Much appreciated, thanks for sharing the Bn Orbat for Varsity, typically gaps where I don't need them to be! I'll keep chipping away to see if we can get to the bottom of where the A/Tk Plt's sat within the Orbat.

    If you are able to share Gander's account that would be much appreciated, looking through his lens too would really help, even if we think there may be inaccuracies.

    I'll see if I can identify anything in my work so far on Brigadier Faithfull for you.

    Smiling Sylvia.png US boarding CN317 - 1.png US boarding CN317 - 2.png
     
    David Woods and Cee like this.
  9. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    FH,

    Baggy pants and high ankle boots certainly point to it being an American Airborne man. Not long after landing he would have met his own country men who dropped wide in the British zone. I came across a Devon orbat by David in a far flung folder. He places the two Anti-tank Platoons with the Support Coy for Varsity which lines up with the organisational changes after Normandy.

    I have yet to run across info on the Div HQ gliders many of which would have contained Staff Officers with a few men and a Jeep. Interesting account in an awards citation to Major Charles Rickard Brewis. His glider was set ablaze from enemy fire after landing. I wonder if it was the glider seen burning just to the west of Kopenhof Farm?

    Regards ...
     
    David Woods and Fallinghunter like this.
  10. David Woods

    David Woods Active Member

    12th Devons War Diary
    1/5 February, 1944
    A/Tk Platoons (23 & 24 Pls) at A/Tk range, Lydd, Kent.

    A/Tk Platoons 23 & 24 Pls - E Coy - Normandy.
    In September, 1944, 12th Devons reorganised.
    E Coy (Heavy Coy) became Support Coy - Maj. P. R. Dobbin.
    Support Coy became HQ Coy - Capt. E. C. Strawbridge.
    A/Tk Platoons renumbered.
    A/Tk Platoons 25 & 26 Pls - Support Coy - Ardennes/Holland/Germany.


    6th Airlanding Brigade HQ Nominal Roll, Varsity.
    If you look at 6th Airlanding Brigade HQ nominal roll, you will find there is no GSO3.
    Believe Capt. James Denis Carroll, 12th Devons, was the GSO3, on Varsity.

    The Intelligence officer, Capt. Robert John Gilbert, was also 12th Devons.


    6th Airborne Division HQ Defence Platoon.
    Everything I have read from many sources tells me that there was only one 6th Airborne Division HQ Defence Platoon.

    I have heard of a Defence Company, which would contain 2 or more platoons, but never 2 separate Defence Platoons defending the same brigade or division HQ.
    Found the following in Pegasus Archive biographies:

    Rifleman Lancelot George Rooke (Royal Ulster Rifles)
    Unit : Defence Platoon, Headquarters 6th Airborne Division
    Army No. : 14408255
    Awards : Mentioned in Despatches.

    Rifleman Rooke said how the Defence Platoon was more like a mini Company for the Normandy and Rhine Crossing operations with a strength of approximately 60 men. For the impending operations in the Far East it was increased to a full Company size and this is what they took to Palestine.

    I think CN315 and CN316 were not carrying two separate Defence Platoons, but one. The size of the platoon requiring 2 Horsa gliders, which would have carried up to 56 men.
     
    Cee and Fallinghunter like this.
  11. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Hi David,

    Thank you for laying that out, that really helps to visualise the Bn Orbat now, really interesting that the A/T Plt's were renumbered and that confirms the 2 pictures of 25 and 26 Plt's online in 1944. I wonder if anyone has been able to link the picture of gun crew CN141 to either picture?
    CN 141 6 pounder.jpg No 25 Anti Tank Plt 12 Devons 1944.jpg No 26 Plt Anti tank Plt 12 Devons Dec 1944.jpg

    The information on the Defence Platoon is really interesting too, Cee kindly shared Gander's account with me and he mentions members of the defence platoon being in his glider too (CN318 - unconfirmed) which, I suppose when you have observers and and press taking up seats it makes sense to have a blended glider load! His account does have some inaccuracies as we know but we can theorise the loading plan with the level of information available from the different sources and hopefully we can corroborate at some point. It makes sense for a Div Comd to literally have all round defence even in the air - 2 forward and one back with him in the middle fits most British Army doctrine even today!

    I'm enjoying the thread, thanks both.
     
  12. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi... I am curious to find out why an American airborne soldier would board a Horas glider in the UK to go into Op. Varsity... Any ideas?
     
  13. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    So the glider is Chalk Number 317 which was a Divisional HQ glider. There would need to be communications with the US Airborne Division once on the ground, so we can presume this would be either a US liaison officer or radio signaller..
     
    alberk likes this.
  14. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Fallinghunter.

    I know that there were also British signalmen who landed in US Waco gliders on LZ N - part of an outfit called BASSU (British Airborne Signals Support Unit). Some were killed as is reported in US Missing Air Craft Reports.
     
  15. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    I'm not sure who the American was other than to suggest he served in a Liaison capacity. Three Forward Visual Control Post (FSVP) parties were to land by glider in the British zone with one to join with the 17th Airborne afterwards. No idea if American personnel were used there?

    Official photos in the IWM series H41544 - H41588 were taken at various camps and airfields before take off. I can't see anything related to RAF Rivenhall. Div HQ was located at the Mushroom Farm Transit Camp. There are a few photos of Major-General Bols taken by Capt. Evans (AFPU) at the same camp. In one he is standing on the bonnett of a jeep addressing the troops which is also described by Gander in his book. Others by Sgt Christie of the 12th Devons I believe were taken at The Gosfield Airfield Camp and possibly RAF Dunmow?

    This crop from the 6th Airborne Division Op Varsity Report has a bit of a breakdown on HQ Gliders but doesn't reveal their chalk numbers. ASSU?

    Appendix  B -Crop.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    Fallinghunter likes this.
  16. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    ASSU = Air Support Signal Unit

    ... and - to correct what I wrote further above: BASSU = British Air Support Signal Unit
     
    Fallinghunter likes this.
  17. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    This doesn't belong in the Devons thread, sorry - but still: A member of the BASSU on LZ N during Op Varsity. Please note that he's wearing US uniform and kit and a Sten gun BASSU Waco Nr. 42.jpg
     
    Cee likes this.
  18. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Now that is a very interesting observation Alberk - I have seen that picture before but not picked up he is wearing US Airborne uniform and webbing!
     
    alberk likes this.
  19. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    I think the FSVPs were the ASSU element and had their own Horsas that left from RAF Rivenhall. There is some information on them in "HQ No. 38 Group RAF - Report on Operation Varisity" which I'll send to FH. It is somewhat technical and no names are given unfortunately.

    Regards ...
     
    Fallinghunter likes this.
  20. Fallinghunter

    Fallinghunter Member

    Great thanks Cee
     

Share This Page