HQ RE 56Div MEF

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by Uncle Target, Apr 16, 2021.

  1. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Are there any details regarding this unit which was at Anzio on 31st March 1944 where did they operate before and after.
    I believe that for a while they were based on board a ship.
    Where would one need to look.
    I have tried all the favourites (I think) but am getting nowhere.
     
  2. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi,

    Is that not just the RE section at 56th Division HQ? So they would have taken part in the Salerno landings in September 1943, moved up the Italian peninsula with the rest of the divisional HQ and then landed at Anzio in Feb [??] 1944.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  3. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    How obviously correct you are. Why hadnt I noticed that.
    This comes from a letter by Capt Bob Barnsley RE at Anzio.
    He has just left there to move on.
    It seems that they are going to Palestine or Egypt as he mentions MEF.
    I suppose to leave the ship and work ashore again.
    He has been an Adjutant for nine months and would like to return to shore duties.
    He has asked the Colonel if he can find him a Field Unit.

    Not sure exactly what he did next and I suspect it will be difficult to find out unless I can trace the movements of the HQ.
    Unfortunately I dont have any more letters by him to tell me where he went.
    That would be too easy wouldn't it.
    Brain is becoming active again:
    I wonder which ship 56 Div HQ inhabited and where to look to find out.

    Perhaps I should put out a netting call, "Ahoy Sailor, Ship Ahoy!"
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  4. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi,

    Yes, 56 Division were withdrawn from Italy after their pretty awful time in Anzio and moved back to the Middle East to rest, reinforce and retrain. I wonder if he managed to get his job in one of the RE field companies in the division.

    Interesting that you mentioned that he had recalled time spent on an HQ [??] ship - I wonder if some of the Div HQ stayed afloat at Anzio - I’d be surprised to hear that are you sure he wasn’t just referring to the ship that moved them up the coast to Anzio?

    Do you have any letters detailing his experiences at Salerno?

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  5. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    The Chief Royal Engineer at HQ 56 Inf Div had a small team of fellow Sapper Officers around him along with some clerks.

    The CRE coordinated the work of the three Field Companies RE and the Field Park RE in 56 Inf Div.

    It was only after the war that the idea of a CRE was dropped and the Field Companies and the Field Park were group to form an Engineer Regiment. The Commanding Officer of the Engineer Regiment effectively became the CRE - the Div Comd’s engineer advisor.

    Regards

    Frank
     
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  6. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I only have the one letter from him I'm afraid. Most of which is very personal.
     
  7. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    From Gary Tankard: That would have been 95935 Captain J. R. Barnsley. He was Adjutant of HQ RE, 56 Division

    I need to find out where he went next.
     
  8. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    He became Adjutant of HQ RE 56 Division in July 1943. He left in April after the division arrived in the Middle East - he wasn't in this position when the division returned to Italy in July. I don't have the WDs for those three months but I can get them - it may record where he went to.

    He didn't move to any of the Field Companies in the division although I haven't checked the Field Park Company WDs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
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  9. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    As the letter is dated 31st March the division had long left Anzio.

    HQ RE 56 division left Anzio on 11th March 1944 onboard LST 364 landing at Pozzuoli later that day.

    After transferring across Italy they left Taranto on 29th March 1944 onboard MV Devonshire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
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  10. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Tom, yes, you're correct.

    Just to confirm HQ RE 56 Div was located here during it's time at Anzio. Contemporary map at the bottom.

    HQRE56.JPG

    HQRE56_map.JPG
     
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  11. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    From my point of view I have enough to go on so dont really need further research this is far more than I expected.
    He was what may be termed a support actor in my script.
    All be it a very interesting one.
    I will however check other notes as there might be a reference to the ship which might satisfy everyone's curiosity.
    The 67th were for a while moved back near to the position that they originally occupied next to the sea after the landings on 22nd January 1944.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  12. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    The only other notes that I have ref 56 Div are:
    Early February 56 Division arrived to take over the sea flank of the British Sector.
    36th Regt Combat Engineers (US) came under Command having relieved the Loyals.
    They were supported by 67th Field Regt from 12th Feb to 24th March.
    1st Division had to all intents and purposes been reduced to Brigade Strength.
    Their front line was the Moletta, the situation around the Factory was was deteriorating hourly.

    14th March 1944 today 56th Division were entirely relieved by 5 Division.
    It is interesting to work with other Divisions.
    The best part of 56 Div (who arrived new packed with officers and men had only together about a week) seems to be a theatre which they carry about with them. An excellent show staged in a battered warehouse near the sea.
    The men that were able to go said that is was the best they had seen since leaving England.
    Also 56 and 5 Division had mobile bath units, a thing that 1 Div had been promising since 1940 and had done so for only six days at Sousse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  13. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    56 Division didn't arrive new. It came from the bridgehead across the Garigliano which it had spent the last three weeks defending after it assaulting across it on 17th January.

    168 Brigade in particular (which arrived ahead of the main body in an almost emergency scenario) didn't receive any replacements. The following brigades had time to absorb some new replacements before arriving a week later but they wouldn't be classed as packed with them.

    By the time 56 Division arrived at Anzio it was well over due a rest period - this explains why it lasted barely a month at Anzio before it was withdrawn. It has always puzzled me why 46 Infantry Division was not sent to Anzio instead of 56th.
     
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  14. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    The location you give of 56 Div HQ is probably where he was and the refence to the ship refers to the one they arrived on.
    Bob Barnsley was visiting his brother in law in the 67th Field Regt who were in the area of Torre Anastasia/ Anastasia Valley.
    Quite close in fact.
     
  15. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Isnt it strange how men there at the time saw a completely different picture to what we know now. They were fighting and dying for what they believed.
    I am aware that they only knew of things on a need to know basis but doesnt it put you modern day researchers off books written by eye witnesses.
    I am compiling a book using letters written at the time along with photos from family albums taken where and when they could.
    If I am not careful I will end up with a book twice the size with pages of corrections from modern official records.
    Many of my source notes contain counter claims from the men themselves. RHQ was apparently full of liars who never set foot outside their accommodation, gleaning information for their War Diaries from their cronies. They get names and ranks wrong amongst other things. Their only purpose was to make life difficult for the Regiment under their command. This from officers and men of all ranks up to Major in it seems competing Batteries.
    The Big Question is how reliable are the records written by those above RHQ who had more interest in massaging their activities and are now the only source of information available.
    Comments on a postcard as they say!
    Dont think I am getting at any of you personally its a simple request for opinions.
    I am a bit of a cynical old git.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  16. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Gary.

    56 Inf Div rather than 46 Inf Div went to Anzio because the latter was required to fill the gap that emerged on the right of Castelforte once X (BR) Corps were across the Garigliano.

    Because 46 Inf Div had only committed 128 Inf Bde to the assault on Sant Ambrogio, it was considered sufficiently well manned to complete this task - with a few ad hoc units like the various Army and RM Cdo thrown in. They were quickly followed by 1 Gds Bde when HQ X (BR) Corps realised that they had bitten off rather more than they could chew.

    Regards

    Frank
     
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  17. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    This is a spontaneous idea.
    Handbags at dawn but a bit of debate is good for the soul.
    I appreciate your comments and hope to find out what people think.
    All dates and facts or a good story based on what the men thought at the time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  18. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Frank,

    Probably not a discussion for this thread but from a layman's respective the crisis was at Anzio not on the Garigliano. Why send a weakened division there instead of your fresher and, as you say, better manned one?

    128 Brigade was under the command of 56 Division by the end of January. 9 Commando and 43 RM Commando from Special Service Brigade were also initially placed under 56 Division command at the end of January, eventually replacing 128 Infantry Brigade which moved back to it's parent division.

    However, the crisis at Anzio had already been seen by the visionary military genius Mark Clark ;) before the end of January. On 29th January168 Brigade had just re-crossed the river to prepare for an attack on Castelforte the following day. This was cancelled at short notice and the brigade was assigned to 10 Corps reserve on 30th January (already being told it was for a move to Anzio) and it returned over the river. It then rapidly moved into 5th Army reserve on 1st February.

    I guess this is the key question - why was 168 Brigade chosen to move into Corps/Army reserve and not one from 46 Division? Just a question of logistics or location compared to 46 Div Brigades?

    Regards,
    gary.
     
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  19. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    You have to define 'facts'. War diaries aren't necessarily facts - they are one view of events, just like a single persons opinion of the same events on the ground. The WDs maybe more authoritative but they can be just as self-serving as any other account - you're not going to find a critique of the COs performance in any of them. However, certain other documentation can be relied on with more certainty - field returns, casualty returns, ammunition expenditure etc

    In the case in point (the strength or otherwise of 56 Div on its arrival at Anzio) the contemporary opinions of individual cannot standup against the weekly 3008 form returns or the ADMS 56 Division daily strength reports of the divisional sub-units.

    I don't think it is a case of primary documentation versus contemporary personal accounts. They both have a part to play - you just need to be aware of the limitations.
     
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  20. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Gary, Thanks for your broader input #18. I think it very relevant as it is impossible to separate events of this magnitude. Your broad knowledge of the subject provides depth of understanding and Frank with his knowledge of the campaigns that he covers in his tours. I have not read up on Casino for many years but might have to now.
    Slightly off thread, I studied Anglo Saxon History beginning with Mercia but found it impossible to understand what was truly happening without further study of the surrounding kingdoms and their effects. The same applies to Anzio and Casino. The men at Anzio were told that they were to weaken the German grip on Casino to assist a breakout from the Gustav Line, they would be there for one month. Five months later they were still looking and waiting for relief from that quarter and the release of the MAAF.
    Similarly the troops breaking the Gustav Line expected the Anzio forces to cut off the withdrawing Germans and annihilate them. Both were to be somewhat disappointed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021

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