Dornier 17 crash in Widehurst Woods, Kent

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by harri109, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Gottit. Very useful. Many thanks.

    Phillip
     
  2. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

  3. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Hi Ross

    I don't suppose in your travels you came across any documentation on the recovery of Erich Rilling's body? It's the only thing I'm missing now but not strictly necessary for the documentary.
    Cannock sent me down a pic of his gravestone (attached).

    Phillip
     

    Attached Files:

  4. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Hi Phillip,

    Not the level of detail I have to hand on this loss.

    I would contact local archives holding Coroner and Police Occurance reports - usually the records are still closed so you need permission to access from the present Coroner and Police Authority and, in most cases, granted to written request.

    Deaths reported to the coroner - Kent County Council

    Kent Police Museum

    Regards
    Ross
     
  5. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Great idea. Emails sent.

    Meanwhile, another thought occurred. While the crater at Wilden Wood appears to be have been efficiently cleared (though we've pulled a boxload of fragments out over the past two months), reports that the crew were unidentified, and that bodyparts were strewn widely after the subsequent delayed explosion, would seem to indicate that the dog tags of the crew might still lie in the surrounding wood. When the weather clears, we'll take a detector team out to see what lies beyond.

    Phillip
     
  6. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Hello Ross

    Do you have any idea what source Nigel Parker had to link Becker-Ross to Wilden Wood? (see attached)

    Phillip
     

    Attached Files:

  7. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Parker is the only one who can answer this - contact via the publisher.

    However looking at the frontspiece list of specialist editors and contributors it includes Andy Saunders, Philippa Wheeler and Steve Vizard all of whom have extensive knowledge of the actual sites and 70/80s recovery digs.

    Speaking of which - regarding your plan for detector teams and previous visits - be very mindful of the requirements of the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986.

    Ross
     
  8. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Hi Ross

    Many thanks for reverting. We'll get in contact
    Yes, we are very aware of the Act and won't be doing any excavations. We now have enough to do the film.
    Will send you the link when we're done!

    Phillip
     
  9. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Hi Ross

    Bingo.

    See the attached, sent through from Father Paul Kish, vicar of Yalding, Kent.

    Obfw Erich Rilling was recovered from Beltring and buried at Yalding, which means he was either in the plane when it went in or fell close by. This is confirmation of the Wn 4200 - Beltring - Rilling link. Also it ties in with his burial occurring the day after Felkin recorded him as 'still at large'.

    The other chap in the register, Fw Helmu(s)t Schutz, I believe was crew of Do215 (Wn 0038) which was shot down at Den Farm, Collier Street while on photo reconnaissance (he was the only casualty).
    He's buried with Rilling up at Cannock (see attached gravestone).

    My father who lived nearby at Spitzbrook House lifted the bomber of a few bits at the time, and I grew up firing Hans Poser's Luger 9mm into Spitzbrook Lake until we had to hand it in to the British Gestapo. I was a good shot at 7 y/o old too, you'd have been impressed.

    Phillip
    PS: By way of a return favour to the vicar, are we able to shed any light on the vicar's mention of a certain A Gawith, RAF pilot, buried in his churchyard? I've found this one: Battle of Britain London Monument - F/O A A Gawith
     

    Attached Files:

    jonheyworth likes this.
  10. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Hi Phillip,

    Great stuff on Rilling - will certainly return favour to the vicar.

    Wrong Gawith - the gentleman buried at Yalding is LAC Alexander Leslie Anderson Gawith 901704

    Leading Aircraftman A L A GAWITH (901704), Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve) [Royal Air Force WW2 Casualty ]

    Need a few days to look at some other documents to confirm exactly but he died in the general area of Stanton Harcourt/Brize Norton training aerodromes.

    At first glance it does not look associated to a crash and I'm curious as to why at Yalding when parents from Essex.

    Hang fire I'll report back when I can access the deep store documents.

    Regards
    Ross
     
    jonheyworth likes this.
  11. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Thank you, Ross.
     
  12. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Hi Phillip,

    Would be interested to see the entry in the burial register to see if I can make the connection to Yalding (possibly brother - Samuel Douglas Eric Gawith)

    LAC Alexander Leslie Anderson Gawith died near Eynsham from injuries sustained when the motor car he was a passenger in collided with a stationary lorry.

    The inquest was held on the 7th Oct 1940 and adjourned to the 21st January 1941 when the death was registered.

    I stayed at Eynsham for several years when working in the area and would suggest that RAF Stanton Harcourt would be my guess for posting.

    His address is given as Kendal Brown House, Kendal, Westmoreland - not Essex or Yalding but this leads to possible family Tobaco/Snuff links for prewar employment.

    LePipe.it | George‘s Pipe Smoking Pages - The history of Samuel Gawith and Company - part VI

    Regards
    Ross
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  13. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Interesting.
     
  14. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Hi Ross. Interesting. Here's the Yalding burials entry.
    I was talking with Simon Parry who says he has received evidence that Becher-Ross was fished out of the Channel near Calais and another member of his crew came ashore in East Anglia. His guess by a process of elimination for Wilden Wood is:

    8/KG2 Do17Z-2 Wn.2549 U5+FS Boissy-Saint-Léger
    Unteroffizier Günter Flämig - Pilot
    Feldwebel Adolf Hirsch - observer/bombardier
    Feldwebel Friedrich Simon - flight engineer, gunner
    Gefreiter Clemens Sandmann – W/O, top gunner

    Thoughts?
    Phillip
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Ross
    Thank you very much for researching Gawith. I have forwarded the information on to Father Paul Kish.
    - Phillip
     
  16. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    I can locate Alexander's mother near Yalding on the 1939 Register.

    Parsonage Farm, Boxley Village, Sittingbourne R.D. Kent
    Number 7 in a house of 9 persons
    GAWITH Louie A.S. born 12.5.84, widow, a Lady Gardener
    This address is listed between Boxley House, and Parsonage Cotts.
    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...s=31&queryId=9ddeb4b66dce95ac29d9be7370b7f16f

    The listing of her as a widow seems an error as also on the 1939 register her husband is listed in Kendal running the company.
    3 Beezon Road, Kendal, Kendal Borough, Westmoreland.
    No 5 in a house of 7
    GAWITH Samuel A. born 4.6.83, married, director of Tobacco Company
    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...s=12&queryId=9ddeb4b66dce95ac29d9be7370b7f16f

    From an online tree it seems Samuel A. was a solicitor living in Kensington when he married Louisa in 1912, their son Samuel Eric Douglas was born 1917 in Sevenoaks Registration District, Kent. I couldn't locate Samuel on the 1939 Register, but did see he married at Bromley RD, Kent 1945 & returned from South Africa in 1952.
     
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  17. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Bravo, Travers. Many thanks for that. Great detail. Shall pass on.
    Phillip
     
  18. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    He is not on the handwritten war memorial inside Boxley Parish Church, but I have not been able to check the actual memorial itself.
     
  19. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Just heard back from Father Paul Kish, vicar of Yalding, who thanks you for looking into this:

    Phillip,

    I think I may have solved the mystery as to why Alexander Gawith was
    buried in Yalding thanks to this information.

    The Vicar who buried him was The Rev'd. Fr. James Hale who died
    himself at the age of 70 while in post.

    Rev James Rashleigh Hale (1874-1944) - Find A...

    It is quite moving to see his name at the top of the page in the book
    signing to bury someone, and then two entries later he himself is
    recorded as being buried by the then Bishop of Rochester.

    I found his grave in the churchyard and it notes on the kerbstone that
    he was Vicar of Boxley before coming to Yalding in 1934. Clearly if
    his mother was living in Boxley, she knew Fr Hale and perhaps asked
    him to bury her son. Fr. Hale had been Vicar of Boxley since 1911, so
    if Alexander was born there he may have baptised him, too.

    Her ashes are also interred in his plot - she died in 1984, possibly
    100 years old.

    Father Paul Kish
     
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  20. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Something for everyone in the unravelling of why Gawith was buried at Yalding and an unexpected local story for Fr Kish linking the rich history of Fr Hale.

    "I was talking with Simon Parry who says he has received evidence that Becher-Ross was fished out of the Channel near Calais and another member of his crew came ashore in East Anglia."

    On the other hand unravelling some events is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling!

    On first quick search of CWGC no registered war grave is recorded for any member of Becher-Ross crew. If one came ashore in East Anglia as suggested then there should be some trace of how the body was identified.

    A trawl through the death registers for surnames to the quarter Dec 1941 shows no match

    (as an example Dec 1940 register for Brighton records "Henker Waldemar 22" - this relates to sea loss of Ju88 Wn.7058 19 Sept 1940, body washed ashore 4th Nov 1940) Rilling's body find is recorded in Maidstone, Sept 1940, Vol 2a Page 2336

    My search last night was not exhaustive and it may be that rather than landed as stated - the body was identified at sea then committed back to the deep.

    Both crews are possible - but more needs to be done to eliminate one or the other.

    Regards
    Ross
     

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