Dornier 17 crash in Widehurst Woods, Kent

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by harri109, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    I have a call in to the Skinner's Farm Beltring landowner, and also The Lashenden Air Warfare Museum at Headcorn who purportedly excavated the Wilden Wood site. There is a perfect crater there, 23 ' x 8 ' deep (see attached LIDAR scan), and metal signatures all over the place, indicating many fragments, some flung far into the wood. This wood is 'virgin' Andredesweald, so no metal should be there. As a control, we've scanned elsewhere in the wood. No metal save for a couple of shotgun cartridges. Metal fragments in and around the site are unidentifiable, except for one piece which houses oxidised wiring.

    Peter Cornwell mentions above: "8./KG2 Dornier Do17Z-2 (2549). Engaged by fighters during sortie to bomb installations along the Thames and believed that collided with Hurricane of P/O P.J.T. Stephenson of No.607 Squadron during head-on attack and crashed in Widehurst Woods [Wilden Wood], south of Marden, 2.45 p.m. BM Fw Friedrich Simon, HB Fw Adolf Hirsch, FF Uffz Günter Flämig and BF Gefr Clemens Sandmann all missing. Aircraft U5+FS 100% write-off.

    "This aircraft later exploded injuring eight spectators. What little was found of the crew defied identification and was buried as three ‘Unknown German Airmen’ in All Saints Churchyard at Staplehurst. Site investigated by Lashenden Air Warfare Museum and remnants of Luftwaffe Ausweis, Iron Cross, and many small parts recovered. Belgian and German money, recovered from one of the bodies in 1940 by a local resident, now in the After the Battle collection."

    The Marden Fire Brigade attended the Wilden Wood Dornier crash and could identify two occupants in the fiercely burning machine. I'm trying to verify from Staplehurst Church if any unidentifiable German aircrew remains were buried there before being ultimately transferred up to Cannock. P/O Stephenson's Dornier, according to Battle of Britain London Monument - P/O P J T Stephenson came down at Combwell Wood by Bedgebury Pinetum outside Kilndown. I guess there were Dorniers raining down everywhere. The Wilden Dornier never made it to London, hence the bomb explosions.

    We have local testimony from Freda Tomlin of that afternoon. Freda lived halfway between Marden and Staplehurst. My comments are in square brackets:

    “At 2 pm the siren sounded again [second bomber stream coming up from Dungeness]. I was walking down the fields to meet Mother, Betty and Bridget when I saw the smoke rising from a plane which had crashed in the direction of Marden [the smoke from Mike's Hurricane beyond the village]. About four minutes later we saw three parachutes coming down over Marden [Hoebel, Howind and Zimmermann from #4200?]. Had walked back from the fields and were discussing the latest news with Mr and Mrs Brown when we saw three pieces of plane falling to the south of us [the tumbling wings from Mike's Hurricane and Rilling's Do17?]. We suddenly heard a roar and saw a bomber diving straight down over Pagehurst [another Dornier]. There was a bang when it came down [into Wilden Wood] so we all ran indoors. When the all-clear went there was another terrific bang and a cloud of smoke came up over Pagehurst way [Wilden Wood]. It must have been one of the bomber’s bombs going up. We went round by the Plain Tavern and saw people picking up pieces of airplane for about a mile along that road [right by Wilden Wood], so the bomber must have come down near there.”[140 yds into the dense woodland from the road].

    CONCLUSION: I would be grateful for any information leading to the identity/confirmation of the Wilden Wood Dornier and its crew, and also who brought it down. If that was Stephenson's Dornier, then what was the Dornier that came down in Combwell Wood, Kilndown? Battle of Britain London Monument - P/O P J T Stephenson. This is a bit like Whack-A-Mole :)

    At present, the general narrative seems to be that Cooper-Slipper hit the Dornier that came down in Wilden Wood. That's what Lashenden says. Battle of Britain London Monument - F/O T P M COOPER-SLIPPER doesn't commit to the Dornier. Of course, I'm telling a story in the documentary, but I would like it to be the correct one. Any help would be appreciated!

    Is there any way to trace Luftwaffe aircrews and what happened to them? I've confirmed Rilling's crew here: Namensliste. None of them subsequently ended up at Cannock Cemetery apart from Erich Rilling.

    - Phillip
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Regarding Rilling and his surviving crew.

    This was what S/Ldr Felkin reported in the Intel daily flimsy.

    Ross
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    WOW. That's pretty interesting. Thank you for that, Ross. That interview taking place in Staplehurst is in line with the crew parachuting into Cannon Farm, a mile and a half away. Can you enlighten on the crew info, viz: the abrev. B/M, and the numbers to the right of the crew names? The fact that Rilling hadn't yet been located might suggest the Dornier crashed a distance away, not in Wilden Wood. Do we have any info of whether Rilling went in with the craft or parachuted too low, as I read in one summary?

    Phillip
     
  4. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Just a tangential thought. In 1948 the old Luftwaffe was a fading memory but was there anybody in Germany attempting to de-brief returning POWs?
     
  5. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    This was not an interview but intel gleaned from wreck and crew interrogation.

    The numbers to the right are years serving and for Hobel age

    B/m Bordmechaniker - flight engineer cum gunner

    Parry repeats this intel report for Skinners Farm adds Rilling baled out too low - Wilden he lists as Wn3458 Becker-Ross

    The date of the report is 17th so Rilling had not been identified or found by then - after that S/Ldr Felkin had other daily reports to generate so it would take a trawl to see if Rilling is mentioned again in a summary.

    Correction - Parker not Parry
    Ross
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  6. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Good point. I haven't found any organisations in Germany yet who have actively compiled a database on the fate of the thousands of members of Luftwaffe aircrews. Perhaps there wasn't the incentive at the time. If there are any such databases now I'd be interested to look at them.
     
  7. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Thank you, Ross.
    Thank you, Ross. Presumably Rilling ended up in a field or a wood somewhere and was subsequently found. I wouldn't ask you to trawl....

    BTW, are those flimsies available for purchase or access?

    - P
     
  8. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    AIR40/2400 at The National Archives. Covers 11/9 to 6/10

    Nice chap on here did the original copy for me as a fee task - drop him a personal message and ask if he still has the file and what a reprint for you will cost -
    Drew5233

    Ross
     
  9. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Thanks, Ross. Just PM'ed Drew.

    Re "Parry repeats this intel report for Skinners Farm adds Rilling baled out too low - Wilden he lists as Wn3458 Becker-Ross"
    I'm finding that elsewhere lists #3458 Do17 at Combwell Wood, Kilndown.
    Are those flimsies for Skinner's Farm/Rilling's bail out, and Wilden Wood/Becker-Ross available in the lot I can get from Drew?

    - P
     
  10. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    I retrospectively corrected my post Parry for Nigel Parker - Luftwaffe Crash Archive.

    Find that Parker has revisited the original sources and most are mainly Felkin Air40 with additional info rather than using secondary sources with little or no checking.

    For 9 Acre wood, Kilndown Parker has Wn3230 with Krummheuer.

    Air 40 attached

    Cannot see Becker-Ross in Air40 at the moment

    Ross
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Thank you, Ross.
     
  12. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Not sure if you have noticed - the AIR40 gives the modified Cassini map reference as a grid square

    eg R2362 and R2357

    The "Coordinates Translator"

    prefix with w eg wR2362 - plug into box 2 and hit convert.

    Ross
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  13. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Gottit.
    Regarding the Place Date and Time of the AIR40: is that the approx location of the incident? wR2362 doesn't seem to relate to anything relevant in this case when coverted and plotted. It's an approximate.
    Here is the Wilden Wood site: WW.MP4
    - P
     
  14. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Weather for 15/09/40 showing a brisk NW wind - Sept 15 1940 weather.wmv

    Resulting in parachute drift (see attached)
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Little Friend

    Little Friend Senior Member

    Anyone know if there is a Memorial to any of the above mentioned ?
     
  16. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    There's only Erich Rilling's grave at Cannock. I've found no trace of the other three Luftwaffe crew of Rilling's plane. I've even been trying to find the prisoner of war records for them but that's not a trivial pursuit.
     
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  17. Phillip Day

    Phillip Day Member

    Quick update: Just spoke at length with Steve Vizard who puts #3458 Becker-Ross at Wilden Wood, all crew destroyed and probably interred as mentioned above. I have a call in to speak with Simon Parry to see if he can help with any documentation on Becker-Ross. Updated wind drift map attached.
     

    Attached Files:

    Little Friend likes this.
  18. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Right - lets see if we can get this into some sort of order.

    First
    "At present, the general narrative seems to be that Cooper-Slipper hit the Dornier that came down in Wilden Wood. That's what Lashenden says. Battle of Britain London Monument - F/O T P M COOPER-SLIPPER doesn't commit to the Dornier. Of course, I'm telling a story in the documentary, but I would like it to be the correct one. Any help would be appreciated!"

    "CONCLUSION: I would be grateful for any information leading to the identity/confirmation of the Wilden Wood Dornier and its crew, and also who brought it down. If that was Stephenson's Dornier, then what was the Dornier that came down in Combwell Wood, Kilndown? Battle of Britain London Monument - P/O P J T Stephenson. This is a bit like Whack-A-Mole :)"

    No.605 Sqn ORB confirms Cooper-Slipper hitting a Dornier DO-17 on operational sortie - squadron time up 14.00 time down 15.10
    AIR27/2088 attached.

    No.607 Squadron ORB confirms Stephenson slightly injured on operational sortie engaged over Appledore (no mention of ramming but aircraft Cat 3) - squadron time up 14.15 time down 15.20

    So both squadrons combat approx 14.30 hrs

    Other pilots from No.605 are recorded in the ORB as damaging and destroying Do-17 in this engagement - meaning that Wilden Wood aircraft not definitely Cooper-Slipper

    No claims for either pilot recorded in AIR50 - but this does not mean none were made.

    The time and location - time is usually when reported by police/civil defence/Observer Corps etc. Location is a grid square so 1 square mile - treat as general area and see the Echodelta site comments on accuracy of conversion to lat/long

    "Its imprecision, evaluated on the basis of a series of "gauged" points, varies from 5 to 30 arc-seconds, depending on the map projection used (this corresponds to and imprecision varying from 150 to 1000 meters on the field). The mathematic formulas used for the conversions are the "Lambert conic near conformal => Latitude / Longitude" and "Cassini-Soldner => Latitude / Longitude" described in the guide produced by the EPSG."

    Also as I keep typing - Source for Becker-Ross was PARKER not PARRY.

    Ross
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  19. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Now a bit more on the general situation of raids that day

    AIR40/1642

    Specifically the S/Ldr Felkin summary - note the effect of the ramming

    AIR40/2400 two pages

    As the AIR40 flimsy posted before for Rilling specifically records the survivors saying their aircraft was rammed it would suggest that Cooper-Slipper hit this aircraft which then crashed - Parker suggests Skinners Farm

    Ross
     

    Attached Files:

  20. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Sgt Howes 605 has a combat report in AIR50 - it is two page - first page is the afternoon combat/second page the morning combat.

    Edit - scratch comments for page 1 it is for October
    AIR50/169

    For completeness a combat report for No.607 Squadron confirms the nature and location of interception for their action on the 15th at 14.45 hrs

    AIR50/170

    Now Currant also has AIR50/169/35 combat report
    This has a make up of red section and describes the attacks on the DO-17s

    ".... looking up at bombers saw one enemy aircraft spinning down without port wing, also one hurricane spinning down without starboard wing. I then saw 4 or 5 parachutes appear and almost immedately this enemy aircraft blew to pieces."

    Cooper-Slipper is given in this report as Red2

    Too big to attach here but is on free download at TNA if you register now,


    Ross
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020

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