Good Afternoon to all - Following up on a private note fm SDP ref 24 Lancers, it appears that knowledge of 24L is almost non-existent. This is not helped by the fact that they lasted barely 6 weeks in Normandy before being broken up and fed in to other regiments as casualties soared in hard fighting to break-out of Normandy... As both SDP and I know, the War Diaries of 24L are poor, almost as bad as those submitted by many of the Guards Battalions/Regiments. Additional paperwork also appears to be lacking, especially outside the NA at Kew (Although I have no idea what is housed at Bovington)... As many known, I am principally interested in unit histories for the details that such works might throw up with regard unit vehicles and their census numbers. This alongside any first-hand accounts from those who were involved... As such - and to give an example - I include below the only census numbers I have covering 24L - a poor listing indeed...does anyone have any others ? If so, do please post them in this thread... Roddy 24 LANCERS - KNOWN VEHICLE CENSUS NUMBERS - RdN ARCHIVE - 28 JULY 2012 T. 16033 Valentine I COO Chilwell, 2nd Lothians and Border Horse & 24th Lancers Veh initially listed in CIM Log - Tk Mus 623.438 (41) WD Nos/2 1 Jul 41 - Cambridge, UK. Veh fm 2 LBH to 24 L - 2 LBH War Diary, NA File WO166/1391 T. 16244 Valentine I or II (?) COO Chilwell, 2nd Lothians and Border Yeomanry & 24th Lancers Veh initially listed in CIM Log - Tk Mus 623.438 (41) WD Nos/2 1 Jul 41 - Cambridge, UK. Veh fm 2 LBH to 24 L - 2 LBH War Diary, NA File WO166/1391 T. 16344 Valentine II COO Chilwell, 2nd Lothians and Border Horse & 24th Lancers Veh initially listed in CIM Log - Tk Mus 623.438 (41) WD Nos/2 1 Jul 41 - Cambridge, UK. Veh fm 2 LBH to 24 L - 2 LBH War Diary, NA File WO166/1391 T. 18541 Covenanter III 1st Fife & Forfar Yeomanry & 24th Lancers Dec 41 - UK. Veh arrives with 1 FFY - War Diary, NA File WO166/1387 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 18590 Covenanter 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 26529 Loyd Carrier No.1 Mks.I or II Poss 24th Lancers or RAC Training Regiment Poss 1940 ? - Pic via MLU Forum 2007 T. 44934 Crusader II B Sqn, 23rd Hussars and/or 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 - 7 Aug 43 - Veh pic on ex with 11 Armd Div T. 63767 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63768 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63769 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63772 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63773 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63774 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63775 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63776 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 63782 Carrier Universal, Mk.I or II 24th Lancers 1941-42 - UK. Veh noted with 24 LANCERS - BTM Ledger 623.438 (41) WD Numbers 4 T. 81613 Covenanter III or IV 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 81626 Covenanter III or IV 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 82087 Covenanter IV 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 130730 Covenanter IV 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 130733 Covenanter IV 24th Lancers 3 Jun 43 - Veh listed in HQ 11 Armd Div Rail Mov Order for ex - Div AQ Branch, NA File WO166/10522 T. 148465 Sherman VC Firefly 24th Lancers IWM pic H 375702 via Mark Hayward Archive T. 148496 Sherman VC Firefly A Sqn, 24th Lancers 11 Jun 44 - St Leger, Normandy - IWM B 5416 via Mark Hayward Archive
The following is from a thread I posted on the missing-lynx.com web site last September. There are not many photos of 24th Lancers Shermans available and even less information about their 'T' numbers. 24th Lancers were originally part of 11th Armoured Division but gave up their place to 3RTR in early 1944. I believe that, because 24L were being transferred to 8th Independent Armoured Assault Brigade (aka 8th Armoured Brigade), and therefore needed the more 'waterproof' diesel-powered Sherman M4A2 in anticipation of D-Day, they simply handed their M4A4 Shermans over to 3RTR. This was in the sunny seaside town of Bridlington! If correct, this means that any 'T' numbers belonging to 3RTR in mid-1944 most probably were originally issued to 24th Lancers (who had had them from 'new' in mid-1943). 24th Lancers were then posted to Chippenham Park in Suffolk where they collected their issue of M4A2 Shermans ('brand new'? 'pre-owned'? Who knows?). 24L later moved to Milford-on-Sea in the New Forest for final training before moving to the Concentration Area near Southampton. I understand they may have collected more Shermans at this time. This gets us to just before D-Day when my source, the Troop Roll Book belonging to Sgt Harry Dews, was apparently filled in. The following relates only to Harry's Troop which was 24th Lancers 'A' Squadron 3rd Troop, effective date 6th June 1944. Harry kept the Roll Book up to date when the whole Troop was transferred to 3RTR in late July 1944 when the 24th Lancers were disbanded. 24th Lancers: 'A' Squadron 3rd Troop to end July 1944 : T152248 M4A2 75mm Crew: Ames, Rawlinson, Pannell, Foale, Horn. Fate: (presumably) handed in late July 1944 T152214 M4A2 75mm Crew: Dews, Luker, Chapman, Hoffman, Jarvis. Fate: 'Destroyed by enemy action 12th June 1944. Crew all safe'. Replaced by T151040. T150995 M4A2 75mm Crew: Johnson, Ecclestone, Barton, Clayden, Ryder. Fate: 'Destroyed by enemy action 12th June 1944. All safe'. Replaced by T151317. T151040 M4A2 75mm Crew: Dews, Luker, Chapman, Hoffman, Jarvis. Fate: (presumably) handed in late July 1944 T151317 M4A2 75mm Crew: Rawlinson, Ecclestone, Barton, Clayden, Ryder Fate: (presumably) handed in late July 1944 In all this time: Ames was replaced by Millar when former wounded. Johnson left to be replaced by Rawlinson who was replaced by Weston. The Troop was very lucky in that there were no fatalities even though 12th June was clearly a 'bad' day.
I can add a few names but sadly only a couple of numbers. T44586 Crusader Mk II A Sqn ARRAN Ground Warfare Through The Lens R00297-12 T152350 Sherman III B Sqn 5 trp BUCCANEER Courtesy Steve Pannell ? T152881 Sherman III HQ Sqn British Tanks in Normandy Crusader Mk III BUQ-BUQ Sherman III RHQ DEATH, DEATH II, DEATH III, DEATH IV, WAR, FAMINE, PESTILENCE A Sqn ARMAGEDDON B Sqn BLIMY BILL ? Trp 4 Trp BLACK PRINCE, BLOODY MARY, BUTCHER OF CUMBERLAND, PIN-UP GIRL 5 Trp BANDIT, BRIGAND and BUCCANEER Also THE RAM Trp and Sqn unknown Much of the above already courtesy your good selves. Cheers Kevin
The 24th was a fine outfit which performed very well in its brief time in action, and it certainly did not deserve to be broken up. Despite heavy losses, morale in the unit was still good right up to the last day in action. The CO, Anderson, was outstanding. Anderson and many others of the regiment distinguished themselves later while serving with other units. It has been a while since I read the 24th's WD, but I wouldn't say it was the worst I've seen. (For really bad war diaries, check some 8th Army units for June and July of 1942.) Nor would I say that other information about the 24th was 'non-existent' either. There is some good literature on the unit, including a fine regimental history (L. Willis, None had Lances, 1985).
I've got all the regiments war diaries inc appendices from 1940 to Aug 1944 if there is anything I can help with.
Thanks to all - some interesting material appearing...I was perhaps over-egging the pudding ref the 24L war diaries and I notice I can not spell either ! By the way, why is there no dedicated armoured/tank section ? After all, we do have a Recce section with some fine material - we 'tank boys' feel slightly left out ! Roddy
Steve & Kevin - Further thanks for the T Numbers...Steve any chance in the future of anything that falls out of the 3 RTR info ? Interestingly, I have just bought 'Dalesman's War' by Carole Morland fm E Bay. It covers a troopers time with both 24 L & RTR...nice compliment, I suspect, to 'None Had Lances'. Drew - are your WDs fm Kew or Bovington ? If the latter, are there any census numbers in the appendices ? There are none in the Kew diaries... Roddy
Mine are from Kew-I don't think Bovington has any appendices in their collection, I've been led to believe they just have the diary pages.
Drew - Thanks for that and noted ref BTM... Steve/Kevin - Ref T.150995, KO'ed on 12 Jun 44. It would appear that the veh was recovered...I also hold the same T No with a veh in C Sqn, 27th (Canadian) Armd Regt - the Sherbrooke Fusiliers. Unfortunately she fared no better and was hit & brewed south of St Andre on 2 Aug 44. The returning Tp Ldr stated the veh was still a runner & recoverable at the time, but within enemy lines. The Regt WD went on to state that the veh was indeed recovered on 7 Aug 44. (All of this fm the Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12758, ps.1377-78 & 81-91) Love it when it all comes together ! Roddy
Hello All, Tanks are not of particular interest to me, but 24th Lancers of 8th Armoured Brigade, were on the rolls of 50th (Northumbrian) Division for the purposes of D-Day and much of the action in Normandy. The latter is my interest. Looking at your problem from a different angle, would not the manifests for the LST's carrying 56th, 69th, 151st and 231st Infantry Brigades et al to Gold Beach on D-Day include this information? I know that the Army and Navy went to a hell of a lot of trouble making sure that vehicles were stored in a particular order on 'X' deck to ensure that, not only did it all fit effeciently, but that vehicles (and men) were disembarked in the order they were required. This would mean knowing the vehicles by 'name and number'. I believe that 24th Lancers were embarked (mainly) with 56th Infantry Brigade. I have a landing table but it does not carry the sort of detail you require. However, I feel quite certain that information you require must be available. Trux perhaps? Best, Steve.
24L are included on the 56 Bde landing table here. No census numbers, though. It may also be worth checking the WDs for 8 Armd Bde's workshops and any associated forward delivery squadron, as they can record the numbers of any recovered/repaired vehicles.
Hello All, Tanks are not of particular interest to me, but 24th Lancers of 8th Armoured Brigade, were on the rolls of 50th (Northumbrian) Division for the purposes of D-Day and much of the action in Normandy. The latter is my interest. Looking at your problem from a different angle, would not the manifests for the LST's carrying 56th, 69th, 151st and 231st Infantry Brigades et al to Gold Beach on D-Day include this information? I know that the Army and Navy went to a hell of a lot of trouble making sure that vehicles were stored in a particular order on 'X' deck to ensure that, not only did it all fit effeciently, but that vehicles (and men) were disembarked in the order they were required. This would mean knowing the vehicles by 'name and number'. I believe that 24th Lancers were embarked (mainly) with 56th Infantry Brigade. I have a landing table but it does not carry the sort of detail you require. However, I feel quite certain that information you require must be available. Trux perhaps? Best, Steve. The landing tables for 24th Lancers are available on the internet but this does not link the landing table number for 24th Lancers to the LST Pennant number. This was for obvious planning reasons i.e. you need a 'bus' for a particular 'bus route' but, in case 'your' bus is a non-runner on the day etc, there is no way you would link a particular 'bus' to a set route. I like that analogy . In the case of 24th Lancers, their LSTs were USA crewed and there is therefore no information readily available in the UK: I know because I've tried over the last 15 years to find out . Having said that, the LST numbers for their convoy are available...but then it was quite a large convoy and getting to the bottom of all that is too broad a topic for my own particular focus. I know from a process of elimination that my own father was on LST229 (he was in the same troop as Harry Dews, troops were kept together and this was confirmed by the troop leader to me a few years ago as well as Harry and Harry was on the same LST as the 24th Lancers CO and, according to 'None Had Lances', he was on LST229....so that places Dad on LST229). I've tried to contact the USLST Association but they never reply to emails etc (they actually come across to me as a 'commercial' organisation which is unfortunate!). I've actually managed, with the help of Mike Saberley and others, however to obtain several images of LST229, one of them being an IWM photo of the vessel anchored off the Normandy beaches on D-Day itself. Forgive the rambling above but I'm trying to illustrate the difficulties associated with this particular area of research Bottom line in this case would be to get the LST229 manifest from NARA (?) in the USA!
Steve & Kevin - Steve any chance in the future of anything that falls out of the 3 RTR info ? Roddy Roddy The best thing would be to search missing-lynx for '24th Lancers' which will pick up my thread from last September which contains the rest of the information (and relates to 3RTR) as well as any other snippets. I have the 'T' numbers for 3RTR Comets of 'A' Squadron 1st Troop courtesy of 'The Sharp End' by Johnny Langdon. These were: T335050 T335335 'Celerity' (my Dad's tank as I'm sure you know) T334921 T334918 T335335 became 20ZR65 in the 1949 scheme (reference the Comet Key Cards held at Bovington) Steve
Hello Steve, Why don't you try to enlist some assistance from our US members in order to obtain the LST229 manifest from NARA? There are a couple of forum members who post NARA sources on this forum; most recently noticed: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/united-kingdom/46762-training-yanks-commando-depot-spean-bridge.html Best, Steve.
Hello Steve, Why don't you try to enlist some assistance from our US members in order to obtain the LST229 manifest from NARA? There are a couple of forum members who post NARA sources on this forum; most recently noticed: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/united-kingdom/46762-training-yanks-commando-depot-spean-bridge.html Best, Steve. Good idea. Thanks. Will give it a try and report back via a new thread as and when. ....
I wonder if this might have been a 24th L Sherman too? THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944 Ref. - 24th Lancers, M4 vs Panthers. Rauray 1/7/44