Defence Overprint - one question

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by alberk, Jun 5, 2020.

  1. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello, this is a map showing German defenses on 15 March 1945 in Flueren near Wesel. For the upcoming operation Varsity on 24 March 1945 this area was designated drop zone "W". US 507 PIR was to attack this area.
    Many of the positions are marked "u" - which according to the legend means "unoccupied".
    My question: Does "unoccupied" mean that no soldiers were observed near the positions? Or that there were no weapons in these positions (yet)? Which would be strange, as the precise type and number of weapons is also given...
    Any help would be welcome! IMG_7379.jpg
     
  2. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Could mean either - a weapons pit could be dug for a certain number of a certain type of weapon but these might not be moved into position in which case the position would not be manned. It would seem odd to have men but no weapons in place and similarly to mount weapons but leave them deserted.
     
  3. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Robert-w
     
  4. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Something else I red about these maps is that the positions indicated in blue were known from air-reconnaissance and those indicated in red were known from other sources (intelligence, ground observation, patrols and so on). Is that true?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
  5. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    On the maps I have with a key U/C means under construction. Do you have the full map?
     
  6. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    The ones I have say red is air photographs, blue is from other sources.

    IMG_1719.jpg
     
  7. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    What is done if the sources are both? For example the layout of position is based on a PR sortie but the use of that position has been confirmed by an intelligence intercept?
     
  8. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Interesting - and confusing. I would think that most information was based on on aerial reconnaissance. And most maps show blue overprint...
     
  9. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Yes. I do... I'll take another look, but u/c does not seem to appear on it.
     
  10. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    If you take a look at the various overlays here - WWII Defence Overprints - you will see some where positions marked in blue are from air photographs. There obviously wasn't an army wide standard hence why it is explicitly stated on most maps.
     
  11. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Thank you! To me that makes sense.
     
  12. Bedee

    Bedee Well-Known Member

    Knipsel.JPG

    The use of maps during the first years was indeed confusing as there was no standard. But this changed, during the planning of D-Day, today 76 years ago.
    The Brits and US adapted some standards.
    So the standard for Aerials was
    Blue = Air photo information, done by stereoscopic specialists.
    Red = Ground Information, done by troops in the area.

    As you mentioned the overprint you have is from 15 March, so there is NO ground information available, as there where no troops in that area yet.

    Coming back to your question, are the position unoccupied ? Are the weapons still at that position ?
    This was up to the Specialist who was determining the pictures. For sure they can identify if the heavy weapons still in place.
    But identifying soldiers was not that easy.

    In this case you could say, when there are heavy weapons, they are manned by soldiers.

    But look at the special markings on your map (i didn't see this one).
     
    stolpi likes this.
  13. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the valuable info, Bedee
     

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