Map, Ramree Island, Kyaukpyu area, invaded 21 Jan 45

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by Matt Poole, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Matt Poole

    Matt Poole Member

    Greetings, collectors / historians / fellow curiosity seekers,

    Needle-in-a-haystack time...

    I'm trying to figure out the locations of individual RAF Liberator squadron bombing targets in support of the 21 Jan 1945 amphibious landings on the north side of Ramree Island. The town up there is Kyaukpyu. Specifically, I'm looking for a map of sufficient scale to identify BLACK HILL (355 & 356 Sqn target that day) and MOUNT PETER (215 Sqn's target, and it wasn't an easily recognizable terrain feature).

    YouTube has a wartime film about the invasion, and there is a detailed map of Kyaukpyu at the :21 mark of this link: . I don't think either Black Hill or Mount Peter are on this map, but no doubt there was at least another map, maybe more than one, showing the greater area with topography and associated text. I know that the adjoining 1:63,360 maps of the area were 85 E 7 to the west and 85 E 11 to the east, covering the northern part of Ramree Island. I have an index sheet identifying these maps, and on the web I've found scans of adjoining sheets...just not the ones I want.

    The two I want would likely have the terrain I'm looking for, and possibly even smaller-scale maps, subsets of the 1:63,360 maps, were made of the area. (South of the two 1:63,360 maps listed above, the next piece of Akyab Island is map 85 E 12. I have an interest in this one, too, but the other two are much more important. I found this one, but the scan is too low-resolution and I'm not going to purchase it.)

    Maybe there was a 1:126,720 map made, as well, 85 E. This might have the terrain I am looking for, too.

    In the YouTube film, Liberators are shown, plus the dropping of ordnance, but a) I don't know if the shot of Liberators overhead was from 21 Jan '45 and b) I don't trust that the footage of ordnance being dropped and exploding dates from 21 Jan '45. The footage doesn't help me to pinpoint geographic locations.

    Does anyone have a map or maps to make me happy? Even a modern topographic map at the right scale would help. Google Earth doesn't solve the mystery yet.

    The identified terrain features might also be labelled on nautical charts.

    The 1950s 1:250,000 map of the area, from the Univ. of Texas map library, vaguely plops text down, in all caps, reading MOUNT PETER, but this is lousy cartography. (I know, because I made maps just like this at one time, and being vague with text is a common problem.) The more modern 1:250,000 JOG (Joint Operations Graphic) repeats much of the same and is of no help.

    I've googled away and found some good stuff, just not with the topo stuff I want.

    Thanks (with fingers crossed),

    Matt
     
  2. Rothy

    Rothy Well-Known Member

    Hi Matt

    I'm sorry to say that the National Library of Australia - Trove collection does not have the 1:126,720 map of the Ramree in its online collection, as far as I can see.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Maybe a search of TNA records might throw up something useful

    Interpretation and bomb damage assessment reports, Burma: Ramree Island | The National Archives
    Reference: AIR 23/4054
    Description:
    Interpretation and bomb damage assessment reports, Burma: Ramree Island
    Date: 1943 - 1944
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Former reference in its original department: IIJ50/109/7/3

    There are other files you may need to look through to see if you think they are relevant, but often its the appendices to these files that may contain maps etc that could answer your question - Search results: ramree island | The National Archives

    TD

    Example
    Operation "Assassin", capture of Ramree Island: planning | The National Archives
    Reference: WO 203/259
    Description:
    Operation "Assassin", capture of Ramree Island: planning
    Date: 1945 Jan.-Feb.

    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Former reference in its original department: HS/ALFSEA 37/2
     
  4. High Wood

    High Wood Well-Known Member

    The detailed map of Kyaukpyu at the 21 second point is entitled: Town Plan of Kyaukpyu. (HIND 1036 Kyaukpyu). 1:7,500. First Edition 1944. It is the SECRET rather than the restricted version with an overprint of Japanese positions.

    At the 21 second point the pencil is pointing at a feature marked Kyaung on the map. I believe that Kyaung indicates a Burmese Buddhist Monastery of which there are seven marked on this particular map.

    In addition to this map, I also have the adjoining Kyaukpyu West in the same scale. Neither of these two maps show Black Hill or Mount Peter.

    I also have a copy of 85 E/12 and the adjoining (eastwards) 85 E/16, but not the adjoining (northwards) 85 E/11, which is, I suspect, the map you need.

    Do you have the heights of Black Hill and Mount Peter as they may have Burmese names on the map?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  5. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Hello Matt,

    The National Library of Australia have all of the 1:63,360 scale 85 sheets except for one: 85F/5&9. See: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-234285211. Unfortunately they say, “Only sheets covering the Thai-Burma (death) railway have been digitised so far”.

    You can order copies of items, but whether this applies to items which haven’t been digitised I’m not sure.

    Richard
     
  6. High Wood

    High Wood Well-Known Member

    How is this for a historical reenactment?
    aps 002.JPG aps 007.JPG
     
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  7. High Wood

    High Wood Well-Known Member

    The full map.

    aps 003.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
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  8. Matt Poole

    Matt Poole Member

    Great info, Steve (Rothy), TD (Tricky Dicky), Richard, and Simon (High Wood). In the past, I know I'd come upon National Library of Australia map offerings, AND I JUST REDISCOVERED that I'd created a folder for this site. I copied a few maps I'd found AND ONE OF THEM IS THE 1:7000 KYAUKPYU map, Simon (see attached). By the way, that was a clever pencil match to the wartime film example of the Kyaukpyu map! The link to what I downloaded: Town plan of Kyaukpyu [cartographic material] | National Library of Australia

    I completely missed the NLA source yesterday in my searching. Really good to know, and to see that index sheet, Richard. My maps show up as pink -- but I haven't yet figured out how to access the NLA index descriptions for these individual maps. I'll contact NLA and ask, but if one of you can direct me to the exact catalog listings for maps 85 E 7 and 85 E 11, I'd be grateful.

    My guess is that undigitized maps in the collection can be purchased, but it'll cost a few $'s. But they're there!

    I retired from a US gov't mapping agency which had these maps in its library...but many were classified...or I should say they had not been declassified since that ancient time we call WWII, so I couldn't get copies. The security game can be absurd sometimes, and I see that Simon has "SECRET" items!

    A friend at work for one more month before he retires might be able to access 85 E 7 and/or 11 for me. We shall see...

    And The National Archives at Kew source is also excellent. When I get done with this little reply, I think I'll investigate a little more and maybe order that planning report, Reference WO 203/259, as a gamble. Or I'll search for more goodies. Some things are cheap to purchase digitally, if they are already scanned.

    Simon, the elevation of Mount Peter is uncertain, based on the 1:250,000 source. There's a 353 spot height at one point, and the solid brown contours are at a 200 foot interval, but the "MOUNT PETER" text just doesn't pinpoint where Mount Peter is! And I can't pinpoint Mount Peter on Google Earth. Nor can I pinpoint Black Hill.

    I found a "Sailing Directions" description of the area on-line (taken from a publication by my former employer), but some of the distances, as compared to Google Earth measurements, aren't trustworthy; one is off by two miles! This source says that Black Hill is approx. 2.5 mile northeastward of Outer Peak, which is is mostly treeless and approx 1 mile southeastward of West Point. Well, I've sort of pinpointed Outer Peak, though the elevation given in the "Sailing Directions", 420 feet, doesn't match, by a long shot, what I get on Google Earth (282 feet, if I've measured correctly). Ugh! I need to see the old maps or something like the planning report from Kew.

    Thanks for the help,

    Cheers,

    Matt
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    From the History of the Lincolnshire Regiment, 1st Battalion. They were in the first wave and landed at Ramree Island and the map (second page) should help you locate BLACK HILL and Point 191. The Lincolns were relieved and left on the 24th March 1945 leaving 58 men dead, wounded unknown. (Rangoon next).

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    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  10. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    A map from 71 Infantry Brigade War Diary.

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  11. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    71 Brigade war diary, showing movements and some map coordinates.

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    Attached Files:

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  12. Matt Poole

    Matt Poole Member

    Wonderful material, Ramacal -- thanks so much. Going by that map, I'll presume for now that Black Hill is a forested hump, very noticeable, right off of the beach. I've ID'd it on Google Earth -- see the oblique views which display the elevation at a 1:1 scale (in other words, there is no vertical exaggeration, so what you see here is what would be seen looking out an aircraft window).

    For some reason, I had it in my head that Black Hill was inland a bit.

    As for Mount Peter, well, I'll hold off guessing precisely which inland hump constitute this feature. I know that Mount Peter wasn't an obvious terrain feature for the bomb aimers, and the relief features inland a bit are like this. Given lighting conditions, pinpointing a target atop one of these features could, indeed, prove a difficult goal to achieve. (I just reread those Sailing Directions, which describe the terrain on Ramree Island. It is erroneous writing that introduces needless error.)

    My friend who still works at the mapping agency from where I retired will search their map library next week for the two maps I'm most interested in. If he can copy them for me, that would be ideal, as then I will be able to follow the grid reference numbers found in the War Diary. I'm confident that Mount Peter and Black Hill will be found on map 85 E 12. If the map isn't available in that map library, possibly I'll order a copy from the National Library of Australia, if the price isn't too steep!

    Sometimes curiosity leads us astray from our main research thrusts, and many times such side trips prove to be most valuable in their own right. For example, I'm learning about the Ramree Island amphibious assault. Until a couple of days ago, it was "just" a vague military action on the road to victory.

    So, thanks again, Ramacal. Cheers for now,

    Matt
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    As you say, another vague military action in Burma, undertaken by the British & Commonwealth forces of the Forgotten Army in that theatre.
     
  14. High Wood

    High Wood Well-Known Member

    Black Hill would seem to be this feature on the 1:7,500 Kyaukpyu West Map dated January 1945. I can post a clearer image tomorrow when the daylight returns to South Shropshire.

    aps 010.JPG
     
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  15. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Map reference 555608 relating to Black Hill from 1 Lincolns war diary. The hand writing is very hard to read.

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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  16. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    1 Lincolns intelligence report for Operation Matador prior to the assault.

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  17. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Some aerial photos from 1 Lincolns war diary.

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  18. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    The Lincolns landed on Fox WHITE beach according to the detailed landing tables.
     
  19. Matt Poole

    Matt Poole Member

    Hi, Simon. I'm going to venture a guess that Black Hill is not in the area on map KYAUKPYU WEST, based on the map which Ramacal posted. I think Black Hill is the feature just off of the beach, and further west -- the feature I indicated on Google Earth in an earlier post. I wonder if just adjacent to, or atop, the NW tip of your black-outlined area indicates any feature which reads "191" (which would not be the elevation...it's not that high; the elevation of that ridge you highlighted is about 47 feet at the point where it begins to turn (per Google Earth). Point 191, as found on the map Ramacal posted, is right in the area beyond the NW tip of your black-outlined ridge.

    Also, I have a book called "EACH TENACIOUS", a history of RAF 99 Squadron. There is a photo of bombs exploding right off of the NW tip of your black-outlined area on 21 Jan '45, during the attack. Here's a copy, using my digital camera; my good scanner has given up the ghost. I found this location on Google Earth -- see attached.

    I have an email request in to a pal who is a 99 Sqn expert, and who has their Operations Record Book. I've asked him if the ORB indicates 99 Sqn's target that day.

    Slowly, but surely, I'm getting answers and solving mysteries. Thanks to all...and, Simon, I look forward to your next map image when lighting is better!

    Cheers,

    Matt
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Matt Poole

    Matt Poole Member

    Sorry, Ramacal, I missed your latest postings and posted my last one without going back to see what new info had been added. Nice that we now have a grid reference for Black Hill, courtesy of you. Also, there's a grid ref, 557649, for Kyauktalon. Well, well, well, "Kyauktalon" is listed as 99 Sqn's specific target in a book I have, and the author probably took the info from the 99 Sqn ORB; much of his info came from RAF Liberator squadron ORBs. (My 99 Sqn friend with the 99 Sqn ORB documents hasn't gotten back to me yet to confirm my hunch that the ORB gives the target as Kyauktalon.)

    Simon's posted map entitled KYAUKYPYU WEST has the military grid on it, and, using that grid, 557649 matches up to where the bombs are exploding in the image taken on 21 Jan '45 in the book EACH TENACIOUS. So, that's Kyauktalon, which seems to be unnamed on the posted map. It's barely higher than the surrounding land and the nearby beach, but it is higher, and the Japanese parked their carcasses there before the bombing and before retreating (survivors, that is).

    The Black Hill grid ref clearly is to the west, so I can confirm that the feature you thought was Black Hill on the KYAUKPYU WEST map, Simon, is not Black Hill.

    We learn by making educated guesses, which are analyzed to make more educated guesses, and so on. All of this info is good info. Thanks.
     
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