1585145 Thomas Robert EDGELL, 426 (RCAF) Squadron, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve: 01/11/1944

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by CL1, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Remembering Today:

    Flight Sergeant THOMAS ROBERT EDGELL
    1585145, 426 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    who died age 22
    on 01 November 1944
    Son of Thomas William and Rosina Maude Edgell.
    Remembered with honour
    RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
     
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  2. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Flight Sergeant THOMAS ROBERT EDGELL

    1585145, 426 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    who died age 22
    on 01 November 1944
    Son of Thomas William and Rosina Maude Edgell.
    Remembered with honour
    RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY


    1-2 November 1944

    426 Squadron
    Halifax VII NP709 OW-A
    Op. Oberhausen.

    The aircraft took off from Linton-on-Ouse at 1744 hrs.

    7 fatalities

    'Bomber Command Losses' Vol.5 - W R. Chorley
     
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  3. ww2 mike

    ww2 mike Junior Member

    nice to find Thomas remembered here think he was known as bob . my dad would have grown up with him we came from a very small village, mike
     
  4. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
    Post Office, Sandford Orcas, Sherborne, Dorset
    NAME DOB OCCUPATION
    Thomas Edgell 06 Oct 1878 Shoeing General Smith
    (Rosina) Maud Edgell 15 May 1885 Sub Post Mistress
    Sorry, this record is officially closed.
    Sorry, this record is officially closed.
    Sorry, this record is officially closed.
    David Edgill 29 Mar 1929 At School

    ON ACTIVE SERVICE Edgell.—Missing, November, operations over Germany, now reported lost his life, Flgt.-Sergt. Thomas Robert, Edgell R.A.F., aged 22, dearly-loved son Mr. and Mrs. T. Edgell, Sandford Orcas. Sherborne
    (Western Gazette, Somerset, England, 25 May 1945)


    Edgell01.jpg

    Father:
    Edgell02.jpg

    Mother: Edgell03.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  5. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    Sandford Orcas (St.Nicholas) War memorial
    Edgell04.jpg


    Sandford Orcas (St.Nicholas) Churchyard

    Edgell05.jpg
     
  6. ww2 mike

    ww2 mike Junior Member

    now that is impressive research thank you harkness
     
  7. Railway

    Railway New Member

    Hi Mike

    Yes, he was known as Bob - he was my Mum's elder brother. Would like to hear about your Dad. Mum's parents were the sub-postmistress / shopkeeper and blacksmith in Sandford. Her sister my Auntie Sylvia and her family carried on living in the house with Uncle David next door. They both passed away in the last 10 yrs or so but we visited a lot when I was growing up. I have a fair bit of info on Bob. He died on his second op to Oberhausen 1st/2nd nov '44 - the aircraft crashed on the town of Haan. There was also a "Bert Pitman" (Bert = Bertram) from Sandford who was killed flying with Bomber Command - you've probably seen his name on the plaque in the church.
     
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  8. ww2 mike

    ww2 mike Junior Member

     
  9. ww2 mike

    ww2 mike Junior Member

    hi railway ,good to hear from you ! i have sent you a private message would like to know more mike
     
  10. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    I think you need a minimum of 3 posts in order to enable Private Messages, so if railway replies to ww2mike and this separately. it might work - or if Admin relent in the circumstances.

    Question: He is recorded in Chorley as RCAF, as are all except Langton, but his Service Number doesn't appear to be an RCAF series and CWGC show him as RAFVR. Pal alieneyes did look into this crash of Halifax NP709 some years ago and nothing suspicious found.
    The Loss Card info is that this was their 3rd Op
     
  11. Railway

    Railway New Member

    Hi Kevin

    Yes, Bob was RAFVR - he volunteered in, I think '41. Langton was a Scot, and the rest Canadians apart from Leslie Griffith who, interestingly, was from Detroit. I wonder if he'd gone over the border to volunteer - maybe he wanted to avoid ending up in the US infantry. From what I've seen it was quite common in 6 Group for there to be a couple of non-Canadians in each crew.
    It was the 3rd Op for the Skipper, Anderson due to the usual first trip as 2nd Dickie for a new pilot. Their first was Cologne on 30th Oct '44 and this was the second for the rest of the crew - maybe that's the confusion??

    Mike - thanks for your message and great to hear from you. I'm seeing Paul and Caroline pretty soon! No time to reply properly right now but I certainly be in touch via email.
    Cheers

    Will
     
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  12. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Will,

    Griffith was also Canadian. He was born in London, Ontario 16 April 1920. His parents moved to Detroit where his dad took out US citizenship, but his mother didn't, nor did he. He married a girl from Detroit in 1940 and planned to stay there after the war. I know he served in the US Army (Armoured unit in Ft Knox, KY) for five months before enlisting

    There's one incident in his service file that may be of interest to you. It's not in the ancestry version, but the full file in Ottawa. I photographed it in 2009, so I just need find it.

    There was also a German journalist named Manfred Kohl in Haan, Germany, who was writing a book on the loss of NP709. I don't know what came of that.

    Regards,

    Dave
    leslie george griffith death cert.jpg
     
  13. Tony H

    Tony H Junior Member

    From Dr Theo Boiten’s NJWD Vol 2, (Published 2001) there are currently three possible options for this claim;

    Halifax NP709 OW-A was possibly intercepted at 7000M, SW of Duisburg by a Night-Fighter captained by Lt Martin Tschiersch (V/NJG2) and shot down at 2032 for his 9th Abschusse

    Or

    Halifax NP709 OW-A was possibly intercepted at 2500M in the area of Volkel-Geldern-Weert-Venlo by a Night-Fighter captained by Oblt Kurt Matzack (Stab IV/NJG1) and shot down at 2046 for his 10th Abschusse

    Or

    Halifax NP709 OW-A was possibly intercepted at 4500M in the area of Goch-Wesel-Duisburg-Venlo by a Night-Fighter captained by Fw Peter Oberheld (VI/NJG2) and shot down at 2046 for his 3rd Abschusse

    Given that since Boiten’s NJWD works were published, more info has now become available, leading in turn to his on-going NCA series, it is highly likely that confirmation of “the” Nacht-Jagd pilot responsible for the loss will be identified by the time that the NCA for late ’44 is published, later this year . . .

    Hope this is of interest/use to form the "bigger picture"?

    Tony
     
  14. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Of the three, only the 1st seems a possibility, given that they crashed at Haan which is SSE of Duisburg (and also from Oberhausen, their target) and from 20,000 or so feet, then it could have travelled the distance from "Duisburg" area.
    At 8,000 feet, Venlo is much further north west, as is Goch, even from 15,000 ft.....
    But I'm only basing that on the assumption that they'd be heading approximately west back to England, so going a long way back from an interception, aircraft damaged etc doesn't seem likely to have gone very far - but who knows?
     
  15. Railway

    Railway New Member

    Wow. Super-impressed by this response. Thank you all, gents.

    Dave - thanks for that info. All I'd been going on was a mention in one of Bob's letters saying "Les lives in Detroit" (in case his little sister, my mum wanted him to save any foreign stamps!) Are you related to Leslie Griffith?

    Yes, I'm in regular contact with Manfred Kohl. He's a retired gent with a big enthusiasm for Local History - 9 / 10 yrs old at the time and remembers the bombing being relentless - night and day - and going in and out of the shelters with his mother. He finished his book and self-published it. We keep in touch with the extensive (imperfect) help of GoogleTranslate....

    Tony & Kevin - Thanks! I knew about Martin Tschiersch but hadn't been aware of the other two possibilties. I'd been waiting for Theo Boiten's next volume to come out so I'm glad to hear it's (hopefully) on its way. See my attachment....

    In summer 2011 work was taking me to the Dusseldorf area for a week. Had never been to Germany and was looking forward to finally being able to visit Bob's grave at Rheinberg. Couple of nights before I flew out I just tried idly Googling "Anderson, Mullin, Edgell, Goble" etc and up popped an article about the crash from the Rheinische Post. Couldn't believe it. Manfred's details were at the bottom ("anyone with further info please contact.." etc) so I rang him. He put me in touch with Lisa Sharp of the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum and she put me in touch with the nephews of the tail-gunner, John McLea, - mainly John Macclenaghan who, until he retired recently, was a 777 pilot for Air Canada and is also one of the few people to fly the CWHM Lancaster! We all visited Haan for 1st Nov 2014 to be at the crash site and light 7 candles. I'm attaching a scan from a visit I made to the National Archives several years ago - can't remember but I guess it must be from 6 Group records. Would welcome any comments on this. i.e. Can we assume the post-raid analysis has correctly located each aircraft loss?

    Any info on rest of the crew welcome, obviously...

    F/O William Frank Anderson J29202
    F/O Gordon Mullin J36947
    F/S Cyril Goble R194694
    Sgt James Langton 1822461
    F/S Leslie Griffith R/?B 261216

    Best wishes, all.

    Will
     

    Attached Files:

  16. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Will, no doubt some expert Pal can interpret that map better, especially the numbers on bottom left.
    There were 6 bombers lost over the Continent that night, and it might be that NP709 (426 "A") is marked as "3" (presumably 3rd aircraft lost and on the track to the target before dropping their bombs. That intercept is near Remscheid and from there to Haan is a westward path, so a 180 degree reversal of their intended route. Obviously with an aircraft trying to shake off a fighter, course directions have to be made and once control is lost wherever its pointing is where it will land, so it could be the intercept information, but ...... At night, hunting enemy aircraft, position relative to the ground is at best approximate. My feeling would be an intercept west of Haan, and following the intended route, but as I said, 75 years on who can tell?
     
  17. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Will,

    Not related to Griffith. I got involved with this because a Canadian researcher in Toronto was looking into pilot Anderson. Said researcher is the school historian for Malvern Collegiate and he's spent a dozen or so years looking at all the former pupils who were casualties in WWI and WWII. Anderson was one of his first.

    But your comment today made me chuckle. Lisa Sharp, whose grand dad was a pilot, I believe on No. 419 Squadron, contacted me with one of Manfred's emails and we played the same Google Translate game that you're playing. I seem to recall he was adamant that some of the crew met a foul end but there's nothing, evidence wise, in the files of Anderson, Griffith and McLea to hint that. I also research war crimes committed on Allied aircrew so I had a look in the files of the No. 1 Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit in Ottawa and nothing.

    I ran out of time yesterday so didn't dig up the folders on NP709. I'll get to it today and PM you a few things. Some I can post on here, but not all.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  18. Railway

    Railway New Member

    Hi Dave

    Would that researcher be David Fuller then? Lisa put him in touch with me and we had a brief email exchange in 2012.

    Manfred’s researches have thrown up some fairly compelling evidence that two of the crew bailed out successfully and were subsequently killed by the local SS. I have myself met a local gentleman, aged 13 at the time, who witnessed them being apprehended. There is also a local lady who remembers encountering an airman, along with her Grandfather who conducted some kind of exchange with him, possibly in French.

    I’ll have a look at sending you a private msg if this site will allow. I’d be very pleased to see anything you have on NP709.

    Best

    Will
     

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