John BENNETT - S.S. Llangollen 1941

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Mavis Williams, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    "Was carrying wartime cargo in a manner which would be abnormal in peacetime and which involved danger to the ship or to her crew".....
    Well, how would a U boat know that?
    Obviously carrying munitions would be something specific to wartime, but food and other non "war related" cargoes would need to be brought in, we couldn't feed the population on just what we could grow in the UK!

    I guess "W A products" would be Western Africa products, (cotton for uniforms, timber for pit props etc etc?) which must have been loaded in the port facilities and thus exposure to tropical diseases, which may have been misidentified by the ships doctor....

    I think the area is sufficiently riddled with problems that a "simple" ruling that Merchant Navy crews SHOULD be included in the CWGC Debt of Honour. Is it really going to cost anything other than the loading of a lot more Names on to the database?
    Perhaps just adding a plaque at Tower Hill to include ALL merchant seamen who died while serving their Country against the Axis enemies?

    Our politicians can't even find their own exit, so don't expect any action there for a while yet, but common sense (was that ever a requirement for an MP?) should accept that these crews were aiding the war effort, were regarded as legitimate targets by the enemy as well as health and natural hazards....
     
    Hugh MacLean likes this.
  2. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    I could have added this as an Edit, but felt it more pertinent to the thread than the rant above (sorry!)

    BBC - WW2 People's War - SS Llangollen Tom Pimm's story....

    When the war broke out in 1939 I was living in Cardiff in a Barnardo's home. I was desperate to be involved in the war but was too young. In 1941 when I was 14, after spending many hours on the Cardiff docks looking for a job on a ship, I was offered a position on board the S.S Llangollen as a deck hand. The ship left soon after this bound for South Africa with supplies for Cape Town. No sooner had we arrived in the Atlantic than we ran into a terrible storm which caused severe damage to the ship. We were restricted to travelling at 6 knot’s, a rate which was far too slow with the danger of German U boats in the area. As well as this the deck had been stripped clean of life boats, and our radio had been damaged so we couldn't contact anyone. Despite all of this, the decision was made by the captain to carry on even though it was going to take a lot longer than the five weeks originally expected. Because we had no fridges on board all of our food supplies were kept together in one hold, much of which was dried. We had to survive on dried lentils, beans and rice, but at the same time the food supplies was riddled with cockroaches and rats. As we travelled south through the Atlantic we were still able to listen to other ships through our radio but not make contact. We heard numerous ships in our area being hit by German U boats and being sunk but luckily never came across them ourselves. It was a frightening sound to hear.

    The captain made the decision to dock north of Cape Town in the end because of the risk of the Germans and because we had all but run out of supplies. As we came into the harbour we were greeted by an Allied destroyer. The captain had tried to announce our arrival but we were to find that during our journey south it was assumed that we were sunk as well and our deaths had been announced to all our families. The destroyer assumed that we were a German ship in disguise.

    After proving who we really were, we were towed into Cape Town harbour and afterwards fed like Kings, at least it felt like it after months of so little food. It was such a relief to be there, we knew we were all lucky to be alive. During our stay new life boats were fitted and repairs to any damage were completed. We restocked and headed for Aden, stopping in at Durban briefly. In Aden we needed to load coal for fuel. This was not done by ourselves though, but by local children, 400 tonnes of it. It was this that made me realise that my life growing up had never been as bad as I thought.

    After this we headed for Alexandria but at a very slow pace again because of the weight. At Alexandria we were ordered to Tobruk to help collect wounded solders and help them to the hospital ship or back to Alexandria. The deck was littered with wounded bodies causing blood to pour through to the lower decks. I had never seen anything like it and much to my embarrassment I fainted. There were all sorts of people from different regiments, including the Guards, the Suffolks and many South Africans as well. While we were heading towards Alexandria an Italian or German plane, I’m not sure which, bombed a merchant ship right in front of us. But it didn’t touch us nor did it touch the hospital ship.

    I'd suggest that carrying wounded soldiers would not be a peacetime activity.
    Granted this voyage was at a different time, but the ship's crew had suffered privations, not just from the storm damage, but the harrowing messages of ships being sunk "all around them".

    If it's true that their deaths had already been presumed, it's only poor Mrs Bennett for whom it stayed a reality...

    The ship survived WW2.. uboat.net - Re: SS Llangollen, Cragppol and Janetta
    LLANGOLLEN (5056 grt) was completed in February 1928 by R. & W. Hawthorn, Leslie & Co Ltd, Hebburn for Llangollen SS Co Ltd (Evan Thomas, Radcliffe & Co), London. The ship survived the war and on 8 February 1950 was sold to Societe de Navegacion Albion SA (Nicholas A. Simbouras, Athens), Panama and renamed ARETI S. 1956 renamed MARIA CRISTINA for Cia Internacional de Navegacion e Comercio SA, Panama. 1959 renamed KETTARA III for Cia Minière et Metallurgique, Panama. On 7 February 1960 arrived at Nagoya to be broken up at Yokosuka.

    EDIT: Apologies, You've already included the Peoples War extract on your Flintshire site, Mavis!
     
    Roy Martin and Hugh MacLean like this.
  3. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    WA cargo, in the 1950s this included hardwood logs, rubber, palm kernels, I doubt it was much different in the 1940s.
    Perhaps we ought to list merchant seamen lost through disease or illnesses, which were caused by their exposure to additional risks because of the war. I can suggest another three men, from one ship.
     
    Hugh MacLean likes this.
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    "W A products" I hope perhaps one of our naval members might provide an explanation of this code as it appears commonly on Hagues database.

    One thought I had was perhaps War Associated Products - I would also have thought that any and all cargo shipped by the Merchant Navy would have been vital to the war effort, and that all these cargoes would be abnormal to peacetime cargoes.

    TD
     
    Roy Martin and Hugh MacLean like this.
  5. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Two comments.
    1. You can discount Tom Pimm's story in WW2 Peoples War - these events occurred in 1943
    2. WA Prod could equal produce (ie Food) rather than products. Also there is nothing to suggest the Llangollen loaded in Freetown as she came there via Nigeria and Ghana. Freetown was a common stopping place for convoys to refuel/muster. My Dad's convoy stopped there on the way to the Far East for fuel and water (no water though as a recent convoy had depleted the supplies). They weren't however allowed ashore.

    Arnold Hague Ports database

    Tim
     
  6. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Add an extract from one of the ships in Dad's convoy. From http://www.msabbekerk.nl/?p=2689
    The stopover in Freetown, capital of Sierra Leone, is a necessary evil. It is the only port in the region the British can use. Even though this natural harbour – not much more than a place to drop anchor- is not really capable to process the many convoys rounding the Cape of Good Hope. Nevertheless Freetown is of enormous strategic importance: very few ships can travel around the cape without extra supplies. Even the large passenger ships are usually built to sail between Europe and the United States with the possibility to be supplied upon arrival. Rounding the Cape is much further, so a supply port halfway is necessary.

    Tim
     
    Roy Martin and Hugh MacLean like this.
  7. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    I have worked on many MN projects over the years with Billy McGee and Roger Griffiths both members of this site and both of whom will tell you just how hard it is to get a merchant seaman war grave status. Billy in particular has been doing the non-commemoration thing for years and will give you chapter and verse but the CWGC will insist on you providing the evidence and if it doesn't meet their very strict rule-set will not budge. It can be heartbreaking to receive all of those knock backs knowing how much that service [MN] suffered during that time. They lost more men per capita than any of the fighting services and we would have lost the war without them. There can't be many veterans left now but I feel deeply ashamed of my country for not doing more in recognition of those brave souls who never came home.

    I have this quote on my website:

    "The merchant seaman never faltered.
    To him we owe our preservation and our very lives".

    The Right Honourable Alfred Barnes,
    Minister of War Transport - July 1945.

    After 1945 these seamen whom we owed our preservation and our very lives were promptly dropped and forgotten because of the rules. I am sorry but every time this subject comes up it really does get me down.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
    DianeE, ozzy16, CL1 and 3 others like this.
  8. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I do however remember watching the Festival of Remembrance on TV in late 50s or early 60s and it was always the Merchant Navy contingent that got the biggest cheer. The public, then at least, realised what the MN had done. I agree that the differentiation between the armed services and the MN by the Government is despicable. I'm not sure you can blame the CWGC as they are only operating to the Government rules. Who would want to serve on a ship knowing you are the prime target and unable to fight back? But they did, many even again after they had already been previously sunk.

    Tim
     
  9. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Mavis says, (Movement Cards?);
    Catalogue reference: BT 389/19/122, but it will not allow me to download for you to see, even though I have taken a page out. This explains that they were in
    Takoradi, Ghana, then Port Harcourt, and Forcados, Nigeria, then Freetown, Sierra Leone, West Africa.

    Fairly typical of a ship loading W A produce. In those days Forcados was not a port. To get to the WA creeks (dis-tributaries of the Niger) you crossed the bar at Forcados, or Escravos; then embarked a local pilot and helmsmen from a canoe, before going up to Burutu, Warri and Sapele. It was like something out of a Josef Conrad story, with deck passengers and Kroo 'boys' (stevedores) living on the hatches. Have several photos if anyone wants to see them.
     
    timuk and Hugh MacLean like this.
  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Have I been stupid here - does W.A. Prod mean West African Produce(Products) if so what would they normally be??

    Some as previously mentioned, but all vital to the war effort

    BBC - History - World Wars: Colonies, Colonials and World War Two.
    Palm oil, nuts, rubber, tin, bauxite, sisal and food stuffs were among the ever-increasing exports.


    Africa's Strategic Minerals During the Second World War on JSTOR
    Topics: Copper, Diamonds, World wars, Gold mining, Manganese, Coal mining, Mineral resources, Commercial production

    TD
     
  11. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Whilst admitting I know little about this, it would appear that it is easier (though probably still very difficult) to get a name added to a War Memorial than an acknowledgement by CWGC.
    From: http://www.warmemorials.org/uploads/publications/115.pdf
    Addition of names to war memorials.As the creation of war memorials has traditionally been organised locally, with there being no central government directives or funding, the question of who is or is not commemorated and the form in which their details are recorded is usually held to be a local matter.Please note that there are no definitive ‘rules’ about the names and inscriptions on war memorials. Different criteria for inclusion were used by different communities and so who is commemorated, which conflicts are commemorated and the style in which these details appear varies from memorial to memorial. This is why some war memorials only include those who fought and died, whilst other also include those who fought and survived, and why some include civilian as well as service casualties.

    Tim
     
  12. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    TD, as per the BBC history; plus hardwood 'logs', actually tree trunks that were floated down the Niger as rafts - in the terrible days when we, the British, were cutting down tropical forests!
     
  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    :omg:

    are but we cut them down - we didnt just burn them down

    TD
     
    Roy Martin likes this.
  14. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    True, bet I'll bet the greenies would be horrified!!
     
  15. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Or even but!!
     
  16. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    It is clear that under the rules, Increased War Risk is the only way to go but the Increased War Risk (Pensions, Mercantile Marine Act 1942) will require evidence that a war pension was granted to John Bennett. This will be a stumbing block as I doubt very much that one would have been granted. The onus is unfortunately on Mavis or anyone else pursuing this case to provide that evidence to the CWGC.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Roy Martin, CL1 and Tricky Dicky like this.
  17. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Hugh i completely agree it is beyond shameful that the criteria is not fit for purpose.
    It would do our mps and their ilk good to visit a coastal port on a gale blown day in winter and watch a trawler or work boat going out on their business and rewind nearly eighty years and then add the continued threat of enemy activity.
    Absolute hell

    I know how difficult it has been getting casualties accepted via CWGC with all the relevant paperwork


    This I chased up for number of years but his Widow refused commemoration in the shape of a headstone but at least he has always been on CWGC

    No Headstone Only Turf:Second Engineer Officer J.D.Constable Merchant Navy S.S. Empire Pride (Gla


    Regards
    Clive
     
  18. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Clive,
    Did you ever establish the cause of death of James Constable?

    Tim
     
  19. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    No Tim but TD found out he died in Halland hosp West Brom

    Regards
    Clive
     
    Hugh MacLean and timuk like this.
  20. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
    Name: James D Constable
    Death Age: 40
    Birth Date: abt 1904
    Registration Date: Jul 1944
    [Aug 1944]
    [Sep 1944]
    Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
    Registration district: West Bromwich
    Inferred County: Staffordshire
    Volume: 6b
    Page: 609

    TD
     
    Hugh MacLean and timuk like this.

Share This Page