Analysis: Operational use of Churchill Crocodile flame throwers, NW Europe, June-October 1944

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by dbf, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Well done Diane.

    That was the Flame 101 Course. Very instructive.
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  3. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    The war diary of 141 RAC June to Aug 1944 contains a lot of operational reports if anyone particularly interested in this weapon.

    Cheers
     
    Aixman and dbf like this.
  4. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Research by John D. Salt at the Public Records Office in the United Kingdom has unearthed other interesting operational research of flamethrowers in action with British forces in the Second World War.
    Document WO 208/2112, "Translation of German flamethrower manual", states:

    In order to give the men a greater sense of security attention should be drawn to the fact that should the weapon be struck by an infantry bullet or shell splinter it will not explode.

    Salt's research also finds that operational research conducted during the Second World War found that the main effects of flame weapons were on enemy morale as opposed to physical effects. According to Salt:

    The disproportion between prisoners and casualties resulting from flame attacks is mentioned in WO 291/308, "Effect of flamethrowers on military personnel", which says that information from flame actions showed an average expenditure of 270 gallons per death, 9 gallons per prisoner.

    Physical effects are discussed in WO 231/32, "Notes on Wasp and Lifebuoy"

    An attack by flame depends largely on its terrifying effect for its success. Troops familiar with Flame Throwers will offer greater resistance than those inexperienced.


    It is difficult to get large quantities of burning fuel in through the slits in a pill box. Anti-ricochet slits and flaps afford additional protection.


    The occupants of a pill box are fairly safe if they retreat behind the partition wall.

    As a counter measure to flame weapons, the report (according again to Salt) "advises that woollen blankets and greatcoats, especially if wet, give good protection against radiant heat, but should be easy to remove in case they do catch fire."
    Another PRO document, WO 291/986, entitled "The operational effectiveness of the flamethrower tank (Crocodile)" states:

    a) Flame was most effective against houses and fortified buildings. There were invariably set on fire and gutted.


    b) Open defences among woods, hedges and undergrowth provided good targets as the vegetation was easily set on fire.


    c) As would be expected, flame was least effective against pillboxes and the like; only if it could be projected through apertures to the inside did the occupants suffer.

    Salt further comments on his research

    The difficulty of using flame against entenchments is commented on in WO 291/1060, "The A45 flame gun versus the Panzerfaust". This report refers to earlier research using the Wasp flamethrower, which it says shows that "a frontal shot of ignited fuel does negligible harm to men in a slit-trench providing they keep their heads down." The trench should either be enfiladed, or an unignited ("wet") shot fired first. Because of the different ballistics of ignited and unignited fuel, it is likely that two unignited shots may be needed. It is also stated that, if wind conditions are such as to affect shooting, the first shot will usually be wasted, used for indicating wind direction.


    The number of manpack flamethrowers required to reduce a pillbox or bunker seems considerable. WO 232/70, "Flame throwers – Exchange of information with Red Army" says "The number of flame throwers allotted to an assault group formed to attack a pillbox depends on the number of embrasures. On an average 3–4 flame throwers are allotted per pillbox."
     
    Wapen, Nick the Noodle and dbf like this.
  5. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Thank you for posting this.

    This incident is interesting.


    This is, I think, the 4 x 100mm gun battery engaged by WO2 Hollis on D Day, which forms the second part of the citation for his VC. After being pestered by Hollis the Germans were ignored until just after dawn on 7th June when the two crocodiles and a troop of flails decided to harbour in front of them. The Brits were camming up when the Germans opened fire.. The "Infantry" were 12 Gunners from 86 Hertfordshire Yeomanry and according to the author CAB22/246 and 44/247 the enemy were reported variously as 50 - 100 and 150. He settles for at least 60.
     
    TTH, Chris C and Wapen like this.
  6. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    I will look for the reference but I believe it was the commander of Le Régiment de Maisonneuve who was a strong advocate for flame weapons. He deployed them wherever possible and cited statistics that battles were shorter in duration, with far lower casualties and more prisoners taken when Wasps and Crocodiles were employed. He felt that other regiments took far more casualties than were necessary by not using flame more frequently. He was referring to actions in the fall of 1944 and the spring of 1945.
     
    Wapen likes this.
  7. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    From war diary 141 RAC 7th June

    Night 6/7 harboured at CREPON.
    (c) 7th June 1944: 13 Tp shelled at first light by close range enemy bty.
    Assisted by RA signallers armed with grenades and the Westminster
    Dgns Flails, the two Tks assaulted the posn and after 8 shots of flame
    150 PW surrendered. Tk recovered from 15 Tp joined 13 Tp.

    Date: 7 June 44.
    Time: 0600 hrs.
    Place: Crepon 8983.
    Sub-Units: 13 Tp ‘C’ Sqn (2 Tks).
    Task: Battery Position.
    Assault with:
    R.A. & R.C. of Sigs personnel acting as Inf.
    Fire Support by:


    R.A.
    Inf Mortars.
    R.A.C.


    Nil.
    Nil.
    2 Flails of W. Dragoons.



    Approx No of Flame Shots: 8
    Casualties:
    Tks: Nil.
    Trailers: Nil.
    Personnel:Nil.



    Remarks:H.E. and BESA also used. Close follow up by R.A. & R.C. of Sigs personnel with grenades etc. 150 P.W. (including high Officers)
     
    Wapen and dbf like this.
  8. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    War Diary of 86 Fd Regt RA. 7th June

    05.35 AVREs of 8th Armoured brigade coming into harbour by 462 Bty 462 battery gun position are fired at by infantryr guns positioned in wood outside of battery area. AVREs withdraw.

    09.30 2 shermans 1 flamethrower Churchill and drivers from 462 battery led by Lt I A Carpenter enter wood. They discover wood is held in force. The enemy surrendered and 1 officer and 56 other ranks together with 4 ,75mm and 1 88mm were captured. Four wounded officers were also taken..
     
    dbf likes this.
  9. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    George Bannerman

    "I had an interesting war. I think I did some good with flame, teaching people how to use it because we found that when we used flamethrowers properly, it caused the Germans to immediately give up. We just didn’t find many burned Germans because as soon as the first flash of our flamethrowers were used, the people used it, they’d come out of their place and quit firing.
    I have one little story about a sergeant of a Canadian unit; and he was in a Flamethrower Carrier [Wasp Bren Gun Carrier], and he was going across the [Leopold] Canal. And there was an 88 [mm German Anti-Tank Gun] across the way, you know that would have blown that little Wasp Flamethrower into kingdom come. And he pressed the trigger and all they got was the little shot of gasoline and a little fire, but all the people on the other side come out with their arms up and he was pretty near dead scared. But we found that, in most cases, if you used flame properly, we saved lives. And I think that if I have any credit for what I did in World War II, was I taught a lot of people how to use it.
    It [the Wasp] was a Bren Gun [Universal] Carrier [lightly armoured tracked vehicle] and we mounted this thing: it had a tank at the back and the flame fuel was pressurized with carbon dioxide, pushed it through a heater, then on the carrier, and then went to the gun. So when you pressed the trigger, you got a spark, a shot of gasoline and then the fuel came. So the gasoline was on fire and went right along the rod of fuel, up to 150 yards. And then when it hit, it was, there was flame everywhere. Most times, if the crew got the enemies’ heads down by lots of fire, mortars and machine guns, so this tender little carrier could get close. And when it got within say about 100 yards, you’d press the trigger, whoosh and everything quit. Out they came.
    It’s a great weapon and we couldn’t get a lot of commanders to use it, because they thought, oh, it’s not a means [for] anything. But the units that did, and I have one special one, the Régiment de Maisonneuve. I spent quite a bit of time with them and, at the end of the war, they held a special mess dinner for myself; and my crew were well treated too by their other ranks. This unit had been so effective that in the last stages of the war, the last five weeks, when we lost a lot of Canadian lads, this unit had hardly any deaths because they used flame every day; and they just had the enemy coming out, and not firing back. It was wonderful."

    http://www.thememoryproject.com/stories/1716:george-andrew-bannerman/
     
    Nick the Noodle and Wapen like this.
  10. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    TRAINING WITH CHURCHILL CROCODILE FLAMETHROWING TANKS (PART 1) [Allocated Title]
    Object description
    The cardinal features of the Churchill Crocodile flame- throwing tank are illustrated in this film showing the 141st (The Buffs) Royal Armoured Corps training with this new weapon at Eastwell Park, Ashford, Kent.

    Full description
    One such tank from the Regiment's 'B' Squadron arrives at a fuel dump where its four hundred gallon trailer is replenished with FTF No 1 flame liquid. The Squadron's tanks, deployed in troops of three, practise firing sixty- and hundred-yard long bursts of flame on barren ground in the park while on the move. In between firing spells, the Crocodile trailer has one of its five nitrogen cylinders replaced and its two pressure valves adjusted. Examined closely is the multi-pivot link connecting the six and a half ton trailer to the forty one-ton Churchill Mark VII which carries the pressurised inflammable mixture to the flame projector seen mounted in the bows of the tank in the old hull machine gun position. Seen on several Crocodiles are individual crews' names, notably "Monty's Jalopy", and 'B' Squadron's 'Playboy' insignia, "Stop me!", painted onto a right hand side hull escape hatch.
    Physical description
    35mm



    TRAINING WITH CHURCHILL CROCODILE FLAMETHROWING TANKS (PART 2) [Allocated Title]
    Object description
    Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tanks are seen in action on a training ground in Eastwell Park, Ashford, in 141st Royal Armoured Corps' home-county, Kent.

    Full description
    One such tank, called "Monty's Jalopy", has its four hundred gallon fuel trailer filled with FTF No 1, a glutinous petroleum flame mixture, from oildrums. The co-driver seated in the bows of the tank is seen pressing the flame-gun's trigger. A 'B' Squadron Crocodile demonstrates its cross-country ability when travelling over hilly woodland in the park. A troop of three Crocodiles goes through its paces, each tank firing quick, sixty-yard long bursts of flame which produce black oily smoke while moving at ten to fifteen miles per hour. The cameraman films from a Crocodile turret as flame shoots forward from its bow flame-projector, to send black smoke into his lens with the wind. Another drum of fuel mixture and nitrogen cylinders are collected for replenishing a Crocodile trailer. The camera studies the turret of a Churchill Crocodile and the 'Popeye' cartoons and names painted onto two 'B' Squadron tanks' radiator louvres.
    Physical description
    35mm

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45
    © IWM (H 37911)
    Object description
    Churchill Crocodile flame-thrower on trials, Eastwell Park, Ashford, Kent, 26 April 1944.
    image.png

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45
    © IWM (H 37918)
    Object description: Churchill Crocodile flame-thrower in action during trials at Eastwell Park, Ashford, Kent, 26 April 1944.
    image.png

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45
    © IWM (H 37937)
    Object description: Close-up of the flame projector of a Churchill Crocodile during trials at Eastwell Park, Ashford, Kent, 26 April 1944.
    image.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    CHURCHILL CROCODILE FLAME-THROWING TANKS (PART 1) [Allocated Title]
    Object description
    Churchill Crocodile tanks belonging to one of the 141st (The Buffs) RAC's tank squadrons demonstrate the terrifying effectiveness of their flame-throwers in the countryside around Bretteville-sur-Odon.

    Full description
    I. Two tanks from The Buffs 'A' (?) squadron, seen here simulating combat procedure by operating in a pair, squirt liquid flame over ground and onto a ruined farmhouse while on the move.

    Full description
    II. At a filling point, one of the Crocodiles' 6 1/2-ton armoured trailers is replenished with FTF No 1, a thick, jelly- like and highly inflammable fluid.



    CHURCHILL CROCODILE FLAME-THROWING TANKS (PART 2) [Allocated Title]
    Object description
    Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tanks are put through their paces in a demonstration for the AFPU held in the countryside around Bretteville-sur-Odon.

    Full description
    I. The armoured trailer belonging to a Churchill Crocodile from the 141st RAC's 'A (?) squadron is prepared is prepared for action; crew members adjust valves regulating the pressure at which nitrogen stored within the trailer in five cylinders will push the 400 gallons of FTF No 1 through to the flame projector mounted in the bows of the crocodile tank. A short burst is then fired as a preliminary test.

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE 1944
    © IWM (B 9674)
    Object description: A Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tank during a demonstration, 25 August 1944.
    image.png

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE 1944
    © IWM (B 9689)
    Object description: Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tanks in action during a demonstration, 25 August 1944.
    image.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
    Nick the Noodle likes this.
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-1945
    © IWM (B 13944)
    Object description: Churchill Crocodile flamethrowers in action against the village of St Joost, north of Schilberg, during an attack by 1st Rifle Brigade, 20 January 1945.
    image.png


    THE CHURCHILL TANK (INFANTRY TANK Mk IV)
    © IWM (HU 104170)
    Object description
    A Churchill Crocodile flamethrower tank knocked out in Schilberg in Holland, January 1945. An internal explosion has blown the turret off completely.
    IWM (HU 104170).png
     
    Nick the Noodle and Wapen like this.
  13. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944
    © IWM (NA 21102)
    Object description: A Churchill Crocodile flamethrower in action during a demonstration near Faenza, 30 December 1944.
    image.png


    THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1945
    © IWM (NA 23837)
    Object description: Churchill Crocodile flamethrower tank supporting infantry of 2nd New Zealand Division during the assault across the River Senio, 9 April 1945.
    image.png
     
    Nick the Noodle, Wapen and Tolbooth like this.
  14. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Recently found this on You Tube:


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2023
    TTH and dbf like this.
  15. Matt Neame

    Matt Neame Member

    My grandfather was also a crocodile driver. He never really spoke of the war so I am unsure of his regiment and squadron. His brother however was in 107 R.A.C C Squadron as a navigator and unfortunately didn't make it home. I'm just starting to research them both and their regiments etc. Grandad Ronald W Midlane (unsure of rank) and his brother was Trooper Bert Midlane - 14262288 kia 26/10/44 I believe in Nispen. Unsure if he was in a Churchill or other tank though.
     
    Nick the Noodle and Chris C like this.
  16. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. Eastwell Park... (Kent online article from 6th June 2019)

    Park's secret D-Day tank tests revealed

    "Eastwell Park in Ashford is best known for the Champneys hotel and spa that lies at its heart. But in the Second World War it was a secret testing ground for a deadly D-Day weapon, as Robin Britcher discovers.
    The park surrounds a stunning country house, has a picturesque lake and beautiful landscaped gardens.
    But beneath the grandeur lies a fascinating Second World War past." etc...
     
    Wapen, Chris C and dbf like this.
  17. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Interesting to see picture of crocodile in use at St. Joost.
    St Joost is close by the Town of Echt my Father who was there with 5RHA recounts this in his journal .

    The push again, we got to Gwent (a great welcome) and then to Echt a
    village just taken by our chaps. The memory of the three men of KRR's (Kings
    Royal Rifles), being burned by our own Cromwell tanks flamethrower.

    Edit,
    Not sure if there were Cromwell flamethrowers if not misidentification on my Fathers part ..
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
    Wapen and dbf like this.
  18. Wapen

    Wapen Well-Known Member

    Lovely stuff. Thanks for sharing Drew and dbf.:salut:
    When I was a young psychologist for the MOD (1995-ish) I worked on a project to put the main features of tactical psychology into defence studies. A version of the report dbf/Drew report was one of our key references and we eventually shoehorned it into a book. Our working out showed that when Crocs were used badly, the surrender-to-killed ratio was about 1:1 (the same as having no Crocs) but used well with a demonstration and close infantry support, it was 27:1 - an immoral weapon, used well, had a moral outcome. Later generations forgot these lessons, misused and phased out the Croc and the Sherman versions but tried to get the shock effect from air-delivered napalm, which had a very different effect...
     
    TTH, dbf, redtop and 3 others like this.
  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    141 Regt RAC is mentioned a couple of times in the thread. Found this interview on IWM website.

    Object description: British soldier served as tank driver with 141st Regt, Royal Armoured Corps in GB and North West Europe, 1943-1945
    REEL 1 Background in Shipley, GB, 1923-1942: family; education; reaction to declaration of Second World War, 9/1939; call up to army, 6/1942. Aspects of period as trooper with 141st Regt, Royal Armoured Corps in GB, 1943-1944: transfer to unit, 1943; operation of Churchill Crocodile flame throwing tanks; question of squeamishness of using flame-throwers; story of attempt to use flame-throwers against German Channel defences, 1944; basing of unit at Ashford; conversion of Churchill tanks to flame-throwing Churchill Crocodile; operation of flame throwing equipment; training in southern GB prior to D-Day; water-proofing of tanks at Lee on Solent. Recollections of operations as trooper with 141st Regt, Royal Armoured Corps in Normandy, D-Day, 6/6/1944: crossing Channel; landing of unit on Juno Beach; further details of Channel crossing; beach control; size of tank crew; loss of two tanks during landings. Recollections of operations as trooper with 141st Regt Royal Armoured Corps in North West Europe, 1944-1945: move southwards after landings.
    REEL 2 Continues: operations in Normandy; swapping rations with American troops; dealing with dead cows near Falaise; relations with French civilians in Le Havre; losses of personnel and tanks in Normandy; vulnerability of Churchill tanks to German anti-tank weapons; attitude towards Germans; German Air Force; German Air Force attack on unit in Normandy; operating with 53rd Welsh Div in Nijmegen and s'Hertogenbosch, Netherlands including loss of his tank in waterlogged ditch; reception in s'Hertogenbosch; rations; sight of airborne forces during Operation Market Garden; coping with cold conditions in Reichswald Forest, winter 1944-1945; crossing River Rhine, 3/1945.
    REEL 3 Continues: attitudes of Germans; arrival in airport in Hamburg, Germany; painting of Churchill tank for VE Day parade in GB; how his tank was knocked out by shell fire near River Rhine, 3/1945; work setting fire to corpses in trench in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, 4/1945; VE Day in Hamburg; reaction to end of Second World War; lack of psychological effects after Second World War.


    Also a couple of sound recordings in the archives:
    Object description: Street fighting with British Churchill Tanks firing Besa Machine Guns, also small arms, Churchill Crocodile Flame Throwing Tanks and walking infantry in s'Hertogenbosch, Netherlands, 24/10/1944
    Category: Sound
    Related period: Second World War (production), Second World War (content)
    Creator: Army Film and Photographic Unit (Production company) (recorder)
    Production date: 1944-10-24


    Object description: Street fighting with British Churchill Tanks firing Besa Machine Guns, also small arms and Churchill Crocodile Flame Throwing Tanks in background at s'Hertogenbosch, Netherlands 24/10/1944
    Category: Sound
    Related period: Second World War (production), Second World War (content)
    Creator: Army Film and Photographic Unit (Production company)(recorder)
    Production date: 1944-10-24
     
    Nick the Noodle likes this.
  20. Wapen

    Wapen Well-Known Member

    Lovely! Thanks "dbf"!
     

Share This Page