Operation Market Garden (The lorry thread)

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by airborne medic, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Great stuff, Rich: and sort of informative about any line of historical enquiry.
    Lots of fog and potential human confusion out there.
     
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    While looking for something entirely unconnected, I have re-read the dreaded Arnhem Lorry Thread.
    I still quite like it.

    Though, rather sadly the long-looked-for 21AG Admin History site seems to have fallen off the web...

    Knew I should have saved a copy... Wonder if I did.
     
  4. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

  5. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    RE; Admin History of 21 Army Group
    The website is still there but, as VP says, the documents section seems to have disappeared - during a site upgrade; a great shame because there were plenty of other interesting documents. I have asked the question of the site admin (perhaps it is in a members only area). I too can feel slightly smug because I printed a copy off.
    Noel
     
  6. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Rich
    #12 of the above mentioned post

    Print Annotated
    ​15.03.45
    Belgium out for a rest.
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    While looking for something else, I realise that I have some post-VE Day BAOR REME info relating to Class 1 and Class 11 classifications which deal with vehicles being put into storage and their suitability for future use. Both the Bedford 3-ton 4x4 (presumably the QL) and the Austin equivalent (the K5 ?) have a maximum specified mileage of 6500 with an assumption of a minimum 5000 miles further useful life. Whatever the Austin problem was, it seems to have been solved to the extent that engine life expectancy was equivalent to the Bedford GM unit. a05.jpg a06.jpg a15.jpg a16.jpg
     
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  8. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Further to units with Austin K5 during the assault phase in Normandy, I found this extract in the war diary of 297 Coy RASC (G.T.) which was operating DUKWs on JUNO beach.

    "21 August 1944 BERNIERES-SUR-MER
    1800
    Receive warning order to exchange company domestic vehicles (Austin K5) with 39 GT Coy and receive Chevrolet 4 x 4 in lieu. This apparently to reduce no. of types held by 39 GT in load carrying vehicles. Exchange to be effective 22 Aug 44 – authority 11 of C ST 317 dated 19 Aug 44."

    Which matches up with the details in 39 Coy RASC (GT) war diary:

    "21 August 1944 Langrune-sur-Mer, France
    Information received from 11 L of C that all Chevrolet 3 ton 4 x 4 GS C60L and Ford 3 ton 4 x 4 GS WOT6 vehs are to be exchanged for Austin 3 ton 4 x 4 GS K5 vehs."

    Unfortunately, there are no more details in 39 Coy's war diary so I don't know if this was actually done. Does anyone know if 11 L of C ST had a war diary?

    I wonder how many domestic 3-tonners a DUKW company had?

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  9. DannyM

    DannyM Member

  10. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    Domestic 4x4 - reading the excellent Trux section of this forum it appears to be about 24 to 28 domestic 4X4 vehicles in a company
    Noel
     
  11. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi, I posted this up on AHF but realise that some here don't also use that forum so thought I'd repeat here:

    I have finally found some evidence of problems with 4x4 3-ton GS lorries in an RASC General Transport Company. This is detailed in WO171/2422 - WD of 282 Coy RASC (GT) which began to land on D-Day and was equipped with a mixture of Austin K5 and Ford WOT6 3-ton 4 x 4 GS lorries on landing. This is revealed as the unit needed 4 of each as replacements by the end of June 44 (ref the WD of Second Army ST - WO171/245) due to losses sustained both by drowning in the landings and by enemy air action. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find out how many of each type the Company was issued with - but as they were only issued during May 44 I shall keep looking at possible files containing details of vehicle issues in the run up to D-Day.

    By 5 August, the coy recorded a deficiency of 5 task vehicles which by 18 September had increased to a total of 28 vehs needing evacuation. Clearly suggesting that the 4 x 4 vehicles were struggling with the longer daily journeys indicated by the transport details which 282 Company were beginning to meet in September 44. Indicative also, perhaps, that sufficient replacement vehicles were on hand is the fact that on 21 September a party left for ROTS (in the old beachhead area) "to take over 30 new vehicles". The difficulties clearly continued, however, and by 27 October, further replacement vehicles were needed with instructions being issued for the collection of a further 20 3-ton vehicles and for 8 motorcycles; and on 30 October "instructions were received to backload 24 4x4 and collect 4x2 from CAEN...".

    What to make of this? Although not conclusive, the changeover of vehicles as far into the autumn as the end of October suggests that Austin K5's were still being used this late into the campaign which is not the impression given by the original source for the whole "Austin Saga" nor the subsequent repeated regurgitation of the story by subsequent historians, especially those who use it to suggest that it had a large impact on Op MARKET GARDEN.

    I also still find it interesting that 1400 Austin K5 were reportedly issued to the Assault Force and suffered issues due to changes made in May 44 to support their ability to wade in the early stages of the Normandy invasion. The exact same number (1400) are reported as being "defective" later in the campaign despite the fact that I have found quite a few examples of Austin K5's being lost to enemy action early in the Normandy campaign. I'm beginning to consider the likelihood of the 1400 figure referring to all the Austin K5's issued to 21 Army Group units for the invasion and the subsequent use of "1400" by the 21 A Gp Admin History as a rough description to show the scale of 3-tonners affected but not a carefully calculated total.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  12. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Thanks to links posted by Michael Kenny on AHF I have found that the IWM are beginning to digitise some of their WW2 film. Searching for Austin K5 (my favourite search term) took me here:

    15TH (SCOTTISH) DIVISION ADVANCES WITH 12TH CORPS TO THE LOWER SEINE (PART 3) [Allocated Title]

    Right at the beginning is a line of 15 Recce Regt vehicles including some beautiful K5's.

    IWM A70 140-2 - Austin K5 - 15 Recce Regt.JPG

    Now, I know that 3 Recce Regt had K5's and IIRC 43 Recce Regt lost theirs in their MT ship on the way to Normandy. Is this a coincidence, or is it possible that all British recce regts had them? Another great line for further research.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    That's a GS from portee conversion again so not one of the newest trucks.
     
  14. Trackfrower

    Trackfrower Member

    I think that 10 to 35 MPH in 35 seconds is a bit optimistic!
     
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  15. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Later in the same video (at about 1 minute in) there seems to be another Austin K5 towing a trailer. That is another 15 Division one, with a serial number of 42 - can anyone tell me which unit that would be?

    Regards
    Tom
     
  16. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    '42' ought to be the Field Regt. RA attached to the senior brigade - 131st Field Regt. I think.....There are plenty of standard K5s going through with 15 Recce too.
     
  17. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Ref#242. 102 A/T Reg.Branch or active unit
    I can confirm from Gunner Woodvines service record that at the time the photographs annotated "Belgium out for a rest" were taken, he was serving with 131 Reg Field Artillery.
     
  18. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich and Redtop,

    Thanks - I shall look out 131 Field Regt's war diary next time at Kew and look for comments about "troublesome 3-tonners".

    From Trux's brilliant work, it looks like a Field Regt should have had 24 3-ton 4x4 and a Recce Regt should have had 22 3-ton 4x4.

    From my research so far, it's beginning to look like only a relatively small percentage of the 1400 infamous Austin K5s were actually being used on the L of C in August and September 1944 so the impact of the issue with them appears to have been marginal at most on 21 Army Group's stretched logistic resources.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  19. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    And another one!

    30TH CORPS IN ACTION SOUTH OF BAYEUX (PART 3) [Allocated Title]

    Annoyingly, it is just in the distance right at the end of the film (2.02 mins of 2.03 mins). But a K5 no doubt, in a line of 8th Armoured Brigade Shermans (with caption suggesting they are 24 Lancers). As 8th Armoured Brigade was part of the Assault Force, this makes lots of sense. Anyone seen any references to Austin K5 use by 24th Lancers?

    The date of the film is 13 June 44 - however, looking at Willis 'None had Lances' it reads that the war diary for 13 June simply says 'Defended perimeter of Point 103. Nothing to report.' So perhaps more likely to be 4/7 Dragoon Guards?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  20. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi,

    Thanks to Chester Wilmot's take on a single line in 'the Administrative History of 21 Army Group' all everyone seems to remember about the Austin K5 is the problems with pistons but I found a great IWM film showing the key part they [1400 of them!] played in the invasion of D-Day:

    LANDINGS ON 'SWORD' BEACH, 6 JUNE 1944 (PART 5) [Allocated Title]

    About 40 seconds in we can see a K5 powering through the sand and up the beach.:D

    IWM A70 32-2 - Austin K5 AoS 75.JPG

    What a lovely sight.

    Tom
     
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