What difference Australia specifically

Discussion in 'Australian' started by danormal, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. danormal

    danormal New Member

    Hello
    I was talking to a bloke who posed to me that the war would have been won regardless of Australia's involvement. I can not tell you of the pride I have for my father who served for our country and I felt aggrieved by this statement. He asked for a specific example of where Australia alone had changed the course of the war. I must admit I found my self spluttering due to my lack of knowledge, but I suggested el Alamein as an example. I also said that since app 600 000 Australians served overseas we were part of a "team" if you like and so his comments were rather simplistic.
    I am not an expert by any definition, but it has been sticking in my mind for a couple of months now and I wondered if anyone was interested in discussing this.
     
  2. Bourney

    Bourney Junior Member

    When you next see this bloke tell him from me and many others that he his talking through his proverbial backside. You can remind him that Tobruk would have been lost to Rommel in 1941, they held for 241 days. If he wants proof tell him to go to Melbourne to the National Memorial and he can see for himself the names of the fallen. Whilst he his that way he can call in at Changi Cemetery in Singapore, and see some of the names lost on the Burma Railway. Every settlement, town and city has a memorial to their fallen.
     
  3. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    There may be a few instances where "Australians" alone were involved, but as you answered the call from the Mother Country, you shed just as much blood, sweat and tears as any other member of the commonwealth and the US.
    I think it was in New Guinea that the Aussies earned the respect of both the Americans AND the Japanese in holding back what at one time seemed an unstoppable enemy.
    The simple answer is the Britain would possibly have lost the War without the contribution of Australians in the BEF in France; in the RAF in the Battle of Britain and certainly merchant shipping bringing much needed food and war materials to the UK.
    In many instances, the Aussies just didn't seem to know that they were beaten and took on improbable situations and turned them to the good.
    I think you were being wound up, no one with an ounce of knowledge of WW2 (or WW1 for that matter) would deliberately demean any Countries efforts to beat a well prepared and equipped enemy.
    You're right, we were part of a team, whether cleaning boots in the dressing room or scoring the winning goal!
     
  4. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Whether "Australia alone" changed the course of the war is not really relevant as the Western allies in general and the Commonwealth in particular fought as a pretty well co-ordinated team. There could quite possibly have been eventual victory without Australia but I'm sure that it would have lasted a damned sight longer and ended with considerably more Allied casualties.
     
  6. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Thanks RCG
    Just one excerpt:
    'nuff said!
     
  7. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  8. danormal

    danormal New Member

    Thank you for the reply's men.
    I have begun researching Tobruk. My father served at el Alamein, which follows on from Tobruk. He also served at Finchhaven and islands off Laos which is why I have not focused heavily on the Kokoda period of the war.
    I suppose it was my fathers involvement in the war that initially drew my interest. I have to say I cannot get too close to an Anzac parade without getting a golf ball stuck in my throat and tears filling my eyes, such is the pride, respect and love I feel for our servicemen and women.
    Separate to that is the amazing interest from so many directions that WW2 encapsulates.
    I have been learning about WW2 for quite a few years now and must say, from an educational perspective, I know so very very little still, such is the scope of this period of history. Much as my heart lays with Australia, I also feel the need to understand the global story and context.
    It is of course a life-times study with no real end.
    There lies a potential for conflict. Cold statistics and analysis vs real life flesh and blood. How do you measure the importance of "moral" when analyzing battles and specific outcomes 70 years after this catastrophic period concluded. Dissecting and discussing battles deemed to be pointless by historians vs the death and damage to real people and their families. Myths and unchallenged propaganda which morphs into a countries understanding and identity of itself vs clinical facts. Forever untold facts lost in War,censorship and time. Who writes the history, and so on.
     
  9. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    *
    danormal,

    Let no-one lead you to believe that Australia's efforts in WWII did not make a difference. But similarly, let no-one lead you to believe that Australian troops achieved what they did without the 'team' support/effort.

    From what you have said, it was likely that your father served in the 20th Infantry Brigade, 9th Australian Division, or Divisional troops supporting this Brigade. It's infantry battalion were:

    2/13th Australian Infantry Battalion, New South Wales
    2/15th Australian Infantry Battalion, Queensland
    2/17th Australian Infantry Battalion, New South Wales

    9th Australian Division were at the Siege of Tobruk, the 2nd Battle of El Alamein and Finschhafen (northern New Guinea).

    At Tobruk they were the infantry but assisted by British support troops/infrastructure, probably most importantly being the British Artillery.

    At El Alamein, in my opinion, there were three main actions that cracked the Axis determination/defences:
    1. Snipe - a British battle of extraordinary bravery;
    2. 9th Australian Division's hard nosed efforts at the northern most part of the line, through which they managed to carve a salient in the Axis defences; and
    3. Operation Supercharge, whereby the 151st Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division and 152nd Infantry Brigade, 51st (Highland) Division, exploited the breach achieved by 9th Australian Division and resulted in the ensuing rout of the Axis forces by the 8th Army.

    It was always a team effort. That said, 9th Australian Division was highly respected by the British and Axis forces alike. Montgomery's Chief Of Staff, both in the Western Desert and thereafter, Freddie de Guingand, is reported to have said to Monty that he would have liked the 9th Australian Division as an assault Division for D-Day (the date the Allies landed in Normandy). 9th Australian was of the best.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  10. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Hi Danormal, As the others have said, your "Bloke" was either winding you up, had know idea what he was talking about or was just a plain buffoon. The Australian numbers were insignificant to that of Britain the United States and Russia and some other countries however our 6th, 7th & 9th Divisions were all "volunteers" and of a population less than 7 million, 1 million were in uniform and 600,000 saw duty overseas.

    Our 6th Division troops started off at Bardia then took Tobruk however suffered terrible losses in Greece and Crete. Tobruk was the longest siege in British Military history and with our troops in the main and British artillery, Armour etc working in cohesion under an Australian Commander. All the time being supplied by British and Australian Naval vessels running the gauntlet of German aircraft.

    We are not a forum for "What ifs" here however one might ponder the result if Tobruk had fallen in April 1941. The 7th Division was involved in defeating the Vichy French and whether any other division could have achieved what the 9th Division did at El Alamein is supposition as they were there and did the job losing 22% of the total casualties of the battle. Montgomery described the Australian's contribution as "beyond all praise", while General Alexander told the Australians that they had "added fresh lustre to your already illustrious name." They did the job they were assigned to do as part of the team.

    Australians in the RAAF and RAF Squadrons lost nearly 4,000 in "Bomber Command" alone. With the other Australian Squadrons in Europe 454 to 467 squadrons and also in North Africa in Australian and British Squadrons. Australians were crew members in over 200 British squadrons in all theatres, They flew in Australian and USAAF squadrons in the Pacific and have their final resting place in 70 countries.

    The defeat of the Japanese at Milne Bay in August 1942 in New Guinea was the first time the Japanese had been forced to withdraw. Their supremacy after 9 months of victories was now in question although much fighting lay ahead for Australians at Kokoda and the United States forces at Guadalcanal and the Island hopping campaign by the US to the Japanese home Islands.

    Of course the question will always arise from these people as to why Australian troops did not fight in Europe in WW2. Simply, if there was not a war to be fought in the Pacific on our own doorstep, they probably would have. Just like their fathers did in WW1.

    For Australia, the First World War remains the costliest conflict in terms of deaths and casualties. From a population of fewer than five million, 416,809 men enlisted, of whom more than 60,000 were killed and 156,000 wounded, gassed, or taken prisoner.

    Edit: Paragraphs dropped in to one.
     
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  11. danormal

    danormal New Member

    Thanks very much for the replys and information.
    I will smack this dill him around the head with a frozen chicken when I see him next. (I think I am speaking Figuratively )
    It has also given me fresh insights into my ongoing studies
    Thanks again.
    Ps. Dad was in the 2/32 9th division as was predicted.
    Never mentioned a word of it to me in his whole life.
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  13. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Point well made Geoff.......The submission for this thread is nonsense no matter how it originated.

    There were two enemies to overcome,one was Hitler to prevent him from enslaving Europe,the other the expansionist military machine of the Japanese Empire which threatened to overrun South East Asia and near Asia if not checked.The plan agreed by the leaders of the free world was that victory over the Third Reich would take first priority and defeat of the Japanese,second but that did reduce the Australian commitment to final victory in the Pacific.

    The priority for the Australians was to ensure that Japan could not get a foothold in the Northern Territories and the they acted accordingly to defeat the Japanese offshore in New Guinea.It was a learning curve for the Australians in their fight against the Japanese but by the end of 1942 when the Japanese had seen the zenith of their victories pass,the Australians had destroyed the myth that the Japanese jungle fighter was invincible.

    Like all British Empire and Dominion forces,the Australians fought in all theatres of war as required in the coordinated effort to beat both enemies.They answered the call when there was great risk that Britain would be invaded after Dunkirk and the air offensive against Germany was the only option to strike at the heart of the enemy.

    When the invasion of Britain was feared,my NZ cousin's husband was one of many who were dispatched to England for our defence,later fought in Greece,Crete and North Africa where he was captured by the Italians....an example of how those "from the uttermost ends of the earth" responded to the threat that the centre of the British Empire might fall under Nazi terror.
     
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  14. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    All too true Harry.

    To explain sometimes to people how the lads in the Air Force from the "Colonies" got on together during ww2, I showed them a few examples of crew lists.

    Lancaster in RAF BC squadron.

    Pilot: British or Australian or Canadian or New Zealander...................

    Flight Engineer: Mostly British - Not always though.

    Navigator: British or Australian or Canadian or New Zealander...................

    etc down to the rear gunner.

    Not unusual to have a mix of four countries in the crew. "The British" could be English, Scottish etc as well!

    The Dambuster crews were a prime example.

    One of my mates said to me and I quote: "They didn't seem to care who was driving did they" :lol:
     
  15. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    Truly remarkable Australian campaigns are the well know seize at Tobruk and of course our General Monash turning the tide of WWI by rolling out mobile tank warfare. But to me, their achievemnets in PNG at Milne Bay and so many other locations were the most remarkable of WW2. Fighting in the tropics adds a whole extra layer of challenges and to start with they were so very poorly equipped. These troops also had no training in jungle warfare. But they stopped the Japanese on land for the first time in the War. Says it all.
     
  16. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    It is easy to get 'myopic' about a Country, Division, Regiment's etc. contribution to the war effort. However, to put the war in the Far East in perspective, the Australian 9th Division, those of Tobruk fame, thought the Japenese a far inferior opponent to the German they met in North Africa.

    I defer to the Australian 9th Division, as they must have known what they were talking about...

    Best,

    Steve.
     

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