Help with Father's Service with RE

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by Trevarl, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    Hi all

    I’m wondering if anyone can help with information on my father’s war service. I’m trying to put together the story of his time in the army during WW2.

    I apologise in advance if I’ve posted this in the wrong area and if it is I would kindly ask for it to be placed it the correct area. I also apologise if my post is unreasonably long, but I’ve tried to keep the questions themselves as short as possible.

    I’ve attached the following records for my dad, John Leonard Gray:

    Service and Casualty Record (Form B103), together with a copy of my own transcription of it; and TA Record of Service Paper (Form No. unknown), again with a copy of my own transcription.

    I made my transcriptions to date by surfing most of the posts on this great forum, and searching the internet. However there are still some abbreviations/acronyms that I couldn’t find that I would like help with. I've highlighted the relevant areas in green. I would also be grateful if somebody wouldn’t mind reviewing what I have done to make sure that I haven’t mis-interpreted some of the information. Apart from finalising his Service Record I also have a great many questions which I would appreciate help with; I also believe that I will need to ask more questions after the initial questions have (hopefully) been answered.

    1 My mum said that dad had contracted malaria whilst he was in North Africa, but I can’t see a record of this on the Service and Casualty Record, Form B 103. However, on Form B102, page 3, there is a reference to the X(II) List on 14/2/44, but no record of (re)posting to his unit, or posting to the Y List. It just says he embarked for the UK on 6/3/44. Is it possible that he remained attached to his Unit (1056 DOC) and embarked with the rest of them?

    2 My mum said that he was wounded in France as part of the D Day Landings:

    (a) I can’t tell from the records if my father was in fact a part of the D Day Landing?

    (b) (I can’t tell what Unit he was with at the time of his embarkation for NWE (was he still with the 1056 DOC)? – can anyone shed any light on this?

    (c) There are records of him being admitted to a Casualty Clearing Station (which one?) and posting to the X(II) List on 15/6/44, then evacuated to the UK and posted to the Y List on 19/6/44.

    (d) He was admitted to Ronkswood Hospital, but there is no record of his wound on Form B 103. On his TA Record of Service, page 2, Military History Sheet, there are sections “Wounded....” and “Effects of Wounds...”, but these make no mention of any injury. I understand that Ronkswood Hospital no longer exists and a housing estate is now on the land where the hospital once stood and the records have been destroyed, so does anyone know how I can find out what happened to him in France?

    3 On the same TA Record of Service, It states that he was entitled to the War Medal 1939/45, the Defence Medal, the France and Germany Star, the 1939 Star and the Africa Star with Clasp Pt.II. I know these were issued, as I recall seeing them as a young boy; however I had no interest in them at that time and they have since been lost. I am now VERY interested in them and can easily get replicas, but what is the Clasp Pt.II – I’m not sure which one of the 8th Army, 1st Army, or 42/43 Clasp it is?

    4 If he was part of the DDay Landing:

    (e) How can I find out what vessel he embarked from the UK on

    (f) Where did he embark from

    (g) What beach did he land on

    (h) If he was still part of 1056DOC, what was his/the unit’s role

    (i) How can I track his movements up to the time he was admitted to the CCS

    (j) How can I find out how he was evacuated to the UK (ie hospital ship or by plane)

    5 My dad was relocated several times (posted), but I have no idea what each unit did. In the context of my father’s postings as a Sapper, I would really appreciate information on the role of each of the following units:

    (k) Movement Control Group

    (l) Base Operations Workshop

    (m) 58th Section RAOC Stirling

    (n) 22nd Battalion RAOC Forthside Stirling

    (o) Depot Battalion

    (p) No 4 Battalion 1 General Base Depot

    (q) 1015 Docks Operating Company

    (r) 1056 Docks Operating Company

    (s) G Dock Operating Company

    (t) Transportation Training Centre

    6 In regards to my dad’s qualifications:

    (u) What did a Checker (Movement Control) do

    (v) What did a Reel/R&D Checker do?

    Any help with any of this – if not with specific answers, then pointing me to books, other publications, government departments, websites etc for further information – I would be truly grateful for. As you can see, I am totally naive in these issues and would really like help in understanding them a whole lot more

    Many thanks
    Trevor
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Hi Trevor, I can't help at all but others will be along soon who know this particular area.

    What I do want to say is thanks for the brilliant first post - actually attaching the documents you are referring to plus letting us know what research you have done yourself and the results.

    I wish there was a way to hold this up as an example of how to go the next step in researching an individual.

    Good luck.
     
  3. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    I know that the paperwork has it down as a Dock Operating Company but I think this is the earlier name for them and 1056 is a Port Operating Company.

    1056 came under 9 Port Operating Group, 101 Sub Beach Area, and then 2 Port Operating Group.

    The War Diary reference number is WO 171/1795 1056 Coy. 1944 Apr.- Dec.

    There is a bit about them on the forum in the thread about Sword Beach Sword Beach.

    1056 Port Operating Company.
    Eight gangs arrived on the following coasters on D+1 and commenced discharging for the first shift. Dunvegan Head (600 tons built 1920), 2 gangs. Dunvegan Head would return later and be hit by shellfire and burned out. Plasma, 2 gangs, Kyle Gorm, 2 gangs and Holborn Head (500 tons built 1925), 2 gangs. Two spare gangs landed by the above plus six relief gangs landed by LCI(L) took over for the second shift.


    (s) “G” might be for “Group Dock Company” rather than “G Company”.

    Regards

    Danny
     
  4. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Hi Trevor, I would second what DaveB said, it is nice to see someone post a comprehensive summary that gives people something to work on. We can sometimes spend a great deal of time finding out facts that the originator already knows.

    Have had a quick look at the British Army Casualty lists and his service No. doesn't seem to appear, will have a better look later. Best of luck, someone here will be able to help.
     
  5. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Brilliant post Trevor, will take a while to go through it.
    I have seen a few records and can't recall any stating a specific illness or injury.
    I suspect his Malaria was possible only a couple of days or so, so was only in the sick bay of his unit.

    The type of malaria will impact on the severity and length of the infection as well—P. falciparum is the most severe kind, and can result quickly in death if not treated promptly, whereas less rapidly progressing forms of malaria, such as P. malariae, may persist for longer but not cause severe disease. For most cases of uncomplicated malaria, once the appropriate form of treatment is started, the patient will start to recover within a couple of days.
     
  6. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    Hi all

    Thanks for your prompt replies. I live in Australia, so due to the time difference my acknowledgments may seem slow, but I really do appreciate the time that you're putting into this.
    Danny - thanks for the info re the reference to G for Group and the information about the 1056 Port Operations Company. Is there a diary reference for the period up to April 1944 that my dad spent in North Africa?
    RCG - thanks for the explanation of the malaria, it looks like he had one of the milder forms and recovered quickly.
    Hopefully some other members can provide answers to some of the other questions.
    Regards
    Trevor
     
  7. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Trevor, slowly working through the records.

    B103 1

    30 *8, top of form

    Bottom rubber stamp 30 ****

    These may just be ref nos of the record office which dealt with these records.

    B103 2.

    Mostly unreadable

    Checker. No idea yet.

    No 4 (sc) Hme Glasgow.

    Could be no 4 school of Heavy Mechanical equipment. (nothing found).

    Or something Electric as this RE man did

    On 8th October 1942 he was transferred to Glasgow Technical College for three months to train as an electrician, spending his time in civilian digs on Bath Street, Sauchihall Street. After training, he went on to 1053 Port Maintenance Company at Leffnol, Stranraer

    http://branches.britishlegion.org.uk/branches/dinnington/members-pot-pouri/ron-elliott-personal-recollections-of-wwii

    B103 3.

    23/42 Just an order no, which authorises leave.

    Stirling Fap (inserted acom) Wef.

    Fap = For All Purposes. Acom = Accomodation.

    I think this refers to pay as throughout the records other instances of pay are referred to such as HRM. Higher rate messing and SLR. Standard local rate.

    So FAP may have been a payment used for accommodation.

    5/9/42 Duty station Rio (Remote infrastructure operations?) Stirling.
     
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  8. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    B103 4.

    Posted to RE Depot Halifax. 16/11/42

    B Coy Serial RGOXX

    Then repeats same information.

    Serial no RGOXX also known as a Draft code was a code attached to every piece of equipment and men who were going overseas, this was to ensure that everything needed by that unit/regiment went on the same ship and remained together.

    A O W5169 Army Order no, which authorised the men to be posted overseas.

    Embarked UK for service overseas on 26/11/42 (Possible Liverpool)

    Disembarked N Africa on 6/12/42 (port unknown).

    A normal convoy to N Africa took over a Month. As this one took only ten days and was just after operation Torch the we can assume it was a port in French N Africa.

    Posted from No 4 Battalion, 1 General Base Depot to 1015 Docks Operating Company.

    SOS X(A) list 22/12/42. (Pretty sure that A should be a 4

    6. THE X (iv) LIST comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts. Personnel discharged from (x(ii)) to Training Depots, fit for duty, are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps, until posted to a unit, when they are struck off X (iv) and taken on unit strength. Reinforcements in transit between the Base and a unit remain on X (iv) (and the Base Depot strength) until they actually reach and are taken on the strength by the unit to which they are proceeding. Escaped PoWs [Prisoners of War] who until such escape have been on the X (iii) list
    are transferred to X (iv) list on reaching their respective training depots.

    So this basically answers your question on what General Base Depot does.

    Holds troops until they are sent to where they are required.
     
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  9. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    The War Diary for January to March 1944 is WO 170/1823, 1056 Coy.

    If you want to get copies of the War Diaries you could contact PsyWar.Org (Lee) or Drew5233 (Andy) on the forum who both offer a copying service.

    Attached is a specimen syllabus for the Checker course.

    Regards

    Danny

    Checker.jpg
     
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  10. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Thanks for that Danny. Shows just what a checker was and the amount of knowledge they needed for the job.
     
  11. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    Great work RCG and Danny, that’s a lot of good information for me to review and incorporate into dad’s service history.


    I’ll be contacting either Drew or PsyWar regarding the War diaries.


    Regarding dad’s posting and return from North Africa, I just came across 2 references to convoys to this destination. One of them says that a requisitioned ship named MALOJA sailed from Liverpool at 13:00 on 27/11/42; however this doesn’t align with the embarkation date on his record of 26/11/42. The other reference is from “Arnold Hague Convoy Database” that I accessed through a link in a post in WW2talk (the original link was to WS Convoys and from there I found myself at the Hague website)). Convoy HMF.4, refers to a vessel MALOJA carrying 4364 troops, embarking from CLYDE on 27/11/42 and arriving at BONE on 6/12/42. From these 2 sources, it seems probable that the ship was MALOJA, but unclear about the date and port of embarkation. As I said, I’ve only just found this info, so I’ve got some (interesting) work to do to verify this, and haven't yet looked at the embarkation form NA to UK in March '44. I'll post more on this as I find it out.


    Thanks for all your hard work and looking forward to any further answers that you can provide.


    Trevor
     
  12. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    I would say you are correct as to the ship he was on, but a bit muddled with dates etc.

    Convoy KMF. 4. left Clyde on 27th November 1942. Arrived at Bone (Now Annaba) Algeria, on 7th Dec 1942.
    (Convoy web lists the ships in that convoy. But not where they started from).

    The other source says that a requisitioned ship named MALOJA sailed from Liverpool at 13:00 on 27/11/42.
    This makes sense as all the ships in that convoy could not have been in the Clyde at the same time.
    The actual convoy would form up off Oversay. (The area of sea between the isle of Islay and Ireland).
    The embarkation date is when the troops were designated to get on the ship, not when it sailed. The same with disembarkment, it is the time the troops got off, not necessary when the ship docked.
    Disembarked N Africa on 6/12/42. This would be correct as the MALOJA left the convoy and docked at Algiers.
    And appears to have done a bit of shuttling between Algiers and Bone.
    Arnold Hague Ports database
    Use Ship search.

    The return from N Africa in 44, may be more difficult to find, as by this time the Med was fairly plain sailing, so maybe need to look at sailings from Gibraltar.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
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  13. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    Thanks for clarifying the dates (and for picking up that I'd mis typed the convoy number as HMF.4 , which should have been KMF.4).
    Thanks also for suggesting looking at sailings from Gibraltar - I've just spent the last 5 hours without any luck searching all over the web, including Arnold Hague's site, but looking for embarkations from anywhere but Gibraltar!!! - I'll try that port now.

    Cheers

    Trevor
     
  14. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    This is just me musing over Thursday 15th June 45 when he was injured.

    The CCS could have still been in the beach area or a ship just off shore.

    So would have been evacuated by one of the LC/Supply ships returning to south coast ports.

    Don’t seem to be a main hospital until, 101 BGH at St.Loup Hors Bayeux in August.

    101 British General Hospital
    Knutsford 6/43 to 8/44 then to St. Loup Hors; St. Loup Hors 8/44 to 10/44 then to Heverle; Louvain 5/45 to 6/45 then to Heverle. [Information received suggests that this hospital, or perhaps part of it, was at Hatfield House in June 1944 prior to going overseas].

    Hospitals WW2 - Scarlet Finders

    The British try to stop the German retreats by systematically bombarding the localities. Thus, Evrecy and Noyers-Bocage. Benefiting from the effect of the devastation of the bombardments, the British armored units attack in the Villers-Bocage direction, but they are once again backed by the German Tiger tanks.

    http://www.dday-overlord.com/eng/15_june_1944.htm

    Another possibly workplace Mulberry.

    At Arromanches, the first Phoenix was sunk at dawn on 9 June 1944. By 15 June a further 115 had been sunk to create a five-mile-long arc between Tracy-sur-Mer in the west to Asnelles in the east. To protect the new anchorage, the superstructures of the blockships (which remained above sea-level) and the concrete caissons were festooned with anti-aircraft guns and barrage balloons.
    Mulberry harbour - Wikipedia

     
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  15. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    RCG, Thanks again for your input.

    I have just come into some further documents regarding my dad’s service, a couple of which are in poor condition. I haven’t had time to fully cross refer to the two records that I have already posted, but there are some snippets that I can pick out that are different. The documents that I now have are:


    Form B 102 (4 pages, relatively clear – attached). Initially I thought this was more duplication of information already provided in his TA Record and Form B103, but there are some differences:-

    Page 1 refers to 21 Army Group at No.19. It also refers to 5 Transportation Stores Port Detachment at the bottom of the page.

    Page 3 refers to “G” (in quotation marks) Dks Op Coy and immediately below this says Redesignated to 1056 Dks Op Coy. I also refers to X(ii) List 14/2/44 ( ties in with is malaria?). There is also a note under Part II Order “Y List Cas 170/44” alongside posting to Y List (1) 19/6/44. (does this number help with finding out details of his injury?).

    On Page 4 there is a further reference to 5 TN Stores Port Det. 1/2/45, and the last entry is: A+5 ROLL/21AG/452 C;


    FORM F (7 pages, in poor to fair condition) which is from Transportation Stores. On the first page it makes reference to a ship SS CAPE HOWE from UK, dates 1-10 Feb 45, Port of Discharge ANTWERP. The rest of the document contains reference to a variety of plant and materials;


    PAY FORM R.16 dated 14 Feb ’46 (1 page) (Good condition);


    SOLDIER’S RELEASE BOOK 4 MDU C CLASS “A” (Several pages) (very poor condition);


    RECORD OF SERVICE Army Form W5258 (1 page) (good condition, but not a lot of information);


    NATIONAL SERVICE ACTS 1939 TO1942. POSITION OF MEN EXPLANATORY NOTE (2 pages) (fair to good condition).


    If these are of interest to anyone, I’m happy to post these.


    Cheers


    Trevor
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    I haven’t been able to find out any more about my dad’s casualty, the CCS, or hospital and evacuation at this stage. I’ve ordered war diaries from Drew and hopefully that will provide more clues about his casualty and also tell me more about my dad’s activities during his short time in Normandy. I’m particularly interested in what a checker would actually be doing in the heat of war – is anyone able to provide information on this?

    With regards to his posting to N Africa and subsequent return, I’m no longer sure of the ship that he embarked on. I originally thought that it was the (SS or RMS?) MALOJA, but there are other ships on the convoy KMF.4 that he could have been on. Also, the convoy that he returned on was certainly MKF 29, but again there are several ships that he could have been on, so I’ve still got plenty of research to do there!

    There are still many more questions about my dad’s service that I would like help with.

    As explained in my original post, I’m trying to put together the story of my dad’s time in the army during WW2, and with the help of this forum, I’ve now been able to transcribe his service records. However, having no knowledge of, for want of better words, how the army works (or worked in WW2), his records in themselves are very minimal, and I am unable to expand to say what he would have actually been involved in at each of his locations.

    None of my own research (via the internet) to date has come up with any further information at all. Even trying to find out the locations of each posting has drawn a blank – what was the address of the barracks/depots in Derby, Stirling, or Halifax – are records of these kept anywhere?

    As explained, my dad was relocated several times (posted/attached), but I have no idea what each unit did. I would really appreciate any information on what a day in the life of a sapper (Checker) would have been like in the following operations:
    1 Movement Control Group
    2 Base Operations Workshop
    3 RAOC Stirling (Stirling)
    4 Depot Battalion
    5 Docks Operating Company
    6 Transportation Training Centre
    7 Stores Port Detachment

    Or can anyone point me to any book, publication, or government department that would have information on the workings of these operations.

    Can anyone say from my father’s records what clasp to the Africa Star he was entitled to, as I’ve still been unable to determine this? In regards to this I have received a copy of notes that my sister made of a discussion that she had with one of my father’s brothers (Vic), just before he passed away. In this Vic says that when it came to joining up, the three brothers each chose different sections of the armed forces (Vic joined the Royal Navy, Len joined the RAF and dad joined the Army). Interestingly Vic said that dad was in the 8th Army – which doesn’t seem right to me – I can’t see it in his records.

    I welcome and sincerely appreciate any comments and help with my dad’s story.

    Trevor
     
  17. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    I managed to get through the bureaucracy of the MOD Medals Office. My dad was awarded the First Army Clasp, though I still can't see where on his records that it mentions the First Army.

    I just received the war diaries that I ordered from Drew. I'll be reading them over the next few days and see if they can shed any light on dad's casualty.
     
  18. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Re Clasp

    Africa Star - Wikipedia
    The 1st Army Clasp was awarded for service with the First Army between 8 November 1942 and 12 May 1943 inclusive. An Arabic numeral "1" is worn on the ribbon bar in undress to denote the award of this clasp.

    First Army (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia
    The British First Army was reformed during the Second World War. It was formed to command the American and British land forces which had landed as part of Operation Torch, the Allied invasion of French North Africa, in Morocco and Algeria on 8 November 1942

    I havent checked his record, but would assume he was there during these dates to earn the clasp

    TD
     
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  19. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    TD Thanks for your reply. My father was in NA from 6th December 1942 until 6th March 1944, so he was definitely within the qualifying period.

    My confusion over this is because three clasps could be awarded, each with different criteria:

    8th Army

    Awarded for service with the 8th Army between 23rd October 1942, the date of the Battle of El Alamein, and the 12th May 1943.

    1st Army

    Awarded for service with the 1st Army for service in Tunis or Algeria between 8th November 1942 and 31st December, 1942, or thereafter between 1st January and 12th May 1943, in any unit under the command of the First Army.

    North Africa 1942-43

    Awarded for service with the 18th Army Group Headquarters who did not qualify for either of the 8th Army or 1st Army clasps between 15th February 1942 and 12th February 1943,

    From the dates alone, I could see that he could qualify for any of the three clasps, but according to regulations only one clasp could be worn, that being the first for which the recipient qualified, which is where I got confused. From my dad’s service record I am unable to tell which one he qualified for. His service record shows that he was posted to 1015 Docks Operating Company within the specified period, but doesn’t state which Army or Headquarters Group 1015 DOC was part of, nor where the unit was located (Headquarters, Tunis, Algeria or Bone?).

    MODMO finally advised his entitlement to the 1st Army Clasp, but didn’t state whether it was for service in Tunis or Algeria 8/11/42 to 31/12/42, or for service between 1/1/43 to 12/5/43. It may appear unimportant, but it would be good for me to know this, as I’m trying to put together as complete a picture as possible of his war service.

    I just had another thought. With regards to my previous questions, should they be the subject of a new thread in another forum (which?), or should I continue with it here?

    Trevor
     
  20. Trevarl

    Trevarl Member

    I'm having dfiificulty uploading files which i am seeking comment on. The files are less than 2 meg in pdf, but won't upload. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
     

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