Crown Copyright Protection, Images from the IWM

Discussion in 'Research Material' started by dave500, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    How much do they charge for high-res digital copies for personal/research use?
    Is it fixed or does it vary?
     
  2. DannyM

    DannyM Member

  3. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Thanks, Danny.

    Not especially cheap, are they?
    Do you think if I offered to go and do the half a dozen mouse clicks required they might give me a discount?
     
  4. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Actually happily surprised they are still offering traditional prints. A professional monochrome printer is a dying trade and photographic paper is getting more and more expensive.
     
  5. Reid

    Reid Historian & Architectural Photographer

    The pricing for their traditional prints is extremely competitive, the price for new scans though is (IMHO) a price gouge, and rather surprising when you compare the skill and time needed to create a B&W traditional print vs. scanning and printing digitally.

    They'll make that back in 2 A4 digital prints; it's not exactly rocket science and whilst I appreciate it does take time, 30 quid to make a scan plus another 15 quid for an A4 print seems very steep!

    I love looking at the IWM website and seeing the images they have uploaded. If I could, I'd offer my printing services in a heartbeat to them, to let me create traditional B&W prints for the masses. Nothing quite like looking at a 70 year old neg, and seeing it appear under a safelight - a bit like going back in time! :biggrin:
     
  6. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    I've already let them know if a photo tech job should come up, I'm in the market :) Happy to end my career where it originally started.

    Entirely agree with both your points re pricing for analog vs digital prints.
     
  7. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I completely agree about the respective prices.

    I have a list of about five or six images of which I'd like digital copies, but they're all images that I originally found in print publications and have subsequently managed to locate the codes for in the IWM listings - the images themselves have not been uploaded to the site. I know that the obvious answer is to email them and ask -- I intend to -- but I wondered whether this usually means that they haven't been scanned/digitised.

    Anybody have any experience of this?

    Edit: I have a large digital copy of an image I've seen in several places and sizes online and in print, but it was only when I was kindly emailed a very large version from a member here that I was able to see a cat in the foreground! It's very clearly there, but the lack of definition in the small black and white images completely concealed it in the shadows.
     
  8. Reid

    Reid Historian & Architectural Photographer

    Started my career as a photo tech too; still in the photography industry, only now I actually take the shots full-time! :lol:

    I completely agree about the respective prices.

    I have a list of about five or six images of which I'd like digital copies, but they're all images that I originally found in print publications and have subsequently managed to locate the codes for in the IWM listings - the images themselves have not been uploaded to the site. I know that the obvious answer is to email them and ask -- I intend to -- but I wondered whether this usually means that they haven't been scanned/digitised.

    Anybody have any experience of this?

    Edit: I have a large digital copy of an image I've seen in several places and sizes online and in print, but it was only when I was kindly emailed a very large version from a member here that I was able to see a cat in the foreground! It's very clearly there, but the lack of definition in the small black and white images completely concealed it in the shadows.


    I'm hoping that one could actually see the cat in the original digital scan, especially for the price!! (Although even if the scan was brilliant, poor printing would negate all the information captured, especially in the shadow & highlight areas.)
     
    PsyWar.Org likes this.
  9. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    As an addendum to my comments above, I've found that if you have an overseas payment address (so a foreign credit card), they will waive the VAT if you request it. That's a considerable saving.

    I've finally bitten the bullet and purchased a print from them: digital A3. It's a really great image -- better than any reproduction of it available -- but the total cost is £52 (£2 on top for the download service!)
     
  10. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    Found this very interesting text and flowchart on National Archives website. Could anyone confirm that this means that no copy rights apply anymore on e.g. WW2 IWM-photos made by official war photographers, or on War Diaries held by National Archives?! Just put in a form for quotation on use of some IWM-photos for a privately published book. Curious what they come up with regarding copyrights.

    "Crown copyright covers material created by civil servants, ministers and government departments and agencies. This includes legislation, government codes of practice, Ordnance Survey mapping, government reports, official press releases, academic articles and many public records. For clarification of the duration of copyright please see the flowcharts for Crown copyright and non-Crown copyright."
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Blutto

    Blutto Banned

    Assuming the flow chart is correct (and legally valid), then it appears so.
    This is how I read two potential cases:
    • Photographs, if they were taken prior to 1 Jun 1957, copyright expires 50 years after they were created (taken).
    • Documents that were both created *and* published prior to 1 Aug 1989, copyright expires 50 years after *publication*.
    So apart from the dates, the difference is that documents expiry is based on publication date, whereas with photos it's based on creation date.

    Important to note that this refers solely to Crown Copyright and not to any general copyright protections.
     
  12. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Do not confuse copyright with reproduction rights. Crown Copyright may have expired on Second World War material but if you have copies of items from the National Archives or IWM then they have their own reproduction rights contract, regardless of copyright status.
     
  13. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    So I understand there is a difference between "reproducing" and "copying"? But what is the difference?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  14. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Reproduction Rights contract: I have something you want to copy and possibly reproduce, I'll let you do so as long as you agree to my terms.

    TNA and IWM allow you to make copies of items in their collections as long as you agree that you only use them for educational or private research. If you want to publish them then usually they require a reproduction fee to do so. This is all based on that they own something that you want from them. Copyright is irrelevant to this agreement as such. Although a separate agreement will also be required with the Copyright holder if copyright exists.

    The upshot, despite that Crown Copyright has expired in many WW2 documents held by the National Archives, if you make copies of TNA documents you are not free to further publish those copies.
     
    stolpi likes this.
  15. Scott1975

    Scott1975 Active Member

    This thread has got me thinking, am i free to publish the original army pics i have of my Grandfather?
    Its not something i ever plan to do but are these pics mine to do as i please with or will somebody out there own the copy write?
    All the pics are from the war or before it.

    Regards
    Scott
     
  16. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    How about transcriptions and not photographic images?
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    For what it is worth I spoke to an author yesterday at The National Archives and they informed me they have used lots of IWM images in their books and have never had any comeback (yet).
     
  18. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Transcriptions are fine, as I understand it, in regards to lapsed Crown Copyright material from TNA.
     
  19. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    That would depend on who took the photographs.

    If by an army photographer then likely Crown Copyright applied originally, but now expired.

    If a private studio photograph, the copyright would belong to the commercial photographer and would expire 70 years after their death.
     
  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The ability to transcribe documents is technically a waiver of crown copyright, not a right, so there is always the possibility it could be withdrawn.

    The situation regarding TNA images seems to be intentionally muddy as it doesn't sensibly differentiate between their online 'marketing' photos, images they supply to order or the ones you take yourself, at least the last time I looked. The transcription waiver suggests your photos are personal use only, yet the acceptance of third-party researchers (sterling chaps that they are, obviously) sort of contradicts that.
     

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