Service Records application - MOD response timescale

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by DanMorris1989, May 25, 2015.

  1. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
  2. Sometimes going direct to the regiment he served in may be quicker. Some museums and regiments still keep there files. We do at the Scots Guards.
     
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  3. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Hang on to them !

    "Service records of Guards regiments
    The Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards regiments retain their own records.
    To access them write to or call the appropriate regimental headquarters.
    For Grenadier, Irish and Welsh Guards service records visit the GOV.UK website.
    Some of these records were destroyed by enemy bombing of the Guards chapel during the Second World War."

    see here: British Army soldiers in service after 1918 - The National Archives
     
    SDP likes this.
  4. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    I’m not sure that all the above is totally accurate. SG records are available via FMP - service records for enlistments until circa 1936 the last time I looked - and some CG records are available on the same platform. They do not include service records which, contrary to above article, are with MOD.

    Here is latest circulation about NA/Ancestry collaboration -


    Ministry of Defence service records project - The National Archives

    Steve

    Steve
     
  5. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Steve,

    The Kew list of Places of Deposit include "SG" and "CG", as you mention: see below. In the document you link there is this important statement:

    "The cost of creating digital images from the paper originals, transcribing those records, and building the digital infrastructure to present the images and data to the general public is significant, and beyond our resources and statutory role."

    The MoD can digitise records and pass them to Kew in that form, or use a Place of Deposit. The Advisory Council would be the body to make the decision.

    The Advisory Council in November 2019 minuted this:

    "ACTION: MOD are to be asked to provide a written update for February. The possibility of inviting them to the May meeting should also be left open.
    3.6 The department had sought retentions in respect of both the guards and the service personnel records."

    https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/advisory-council-summary-2019-11.pdf

    The matter was not minuted again in subsequent meetings.

    Perhaps FMP digitised the records you refer to in a deal with the MoD ? ( I do not have access to either FMP or Ancestry.)

    Some "military related" places of deposit:

    Airborne Assault – The Museum of the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces
    Army Chaplaincy, Museum of
    Cheshire Military Museum
    Coldstream Guards, RHQ The
    Fleet Air Arm Museum
    Grenadier Guards Regimental Archives
    Imperial War Museum: Department of Documents
    Imperial War Museum: Film Archive
    Imperial War Museum Photograph Archive
    Imperial War Museum: Duxford
    Imperial War Museum Sound Archive
    Irish Guards, The (Museum and Archive of)
    National Army Museum Templer Study Centre
    National Maritime Museum: The Caird Library
    Royal Air Force Museum, Department of Research and Information Services
    Royal Military Academy Sandhurst Archives (Sandhurst Collection
    Scots Guards, Regimental Headquarters
    Tank Museum
    Welsh Guards (The)

    Full list here:

    Places of Deposit - Archives sector

    John
     
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  6. You are correct. our records go up to around 1936 maybe a little further depending on when the soldier joined. We are currently in the process of doing the same from lets say 1937 - 1945. They should be on FMP within the next 12 to 18 months.
     
  7. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much for the insight into your records. Kew's "Discovery" lists your files with references SGPHO, SGPP, SGR, SGR/2 to 14 ( but no SGR/11 ) , and no reference to FMP at all. By the way, finding an original Kew file reference on FMP is very difficult - for example, files catalogued originally in WO 361 which FMP digitised. FMP index on a personal name but you have to be able to trace the original file instantly - and that is a long performance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
  8. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Thanks very much for the update.

    SG appear to have shared all papers in a man’s (and officer’s) service record file - including discipline and medical forms - rather then the handful of basic records shared by MOD. I spent many hours during lockdown reading files for the contemporaries of my mother’s cousin who served 1935/46 - Right Flank 2nd SG 35/38, Left Flank 1st SG 38/40 until being wounded and taken POW during the rearguard action at Mo I Rana, Norway 17th May 1940. Information in the files of his contemporaries filled in some gaps in my knowledge.

    In addition I especially found the items of post war correspondence with RHQ SG and The Regimental Association included in a man’s file very informative and in some instances very moving. They reflect extremely well on the care afforded to members of the regiment post discharge. I appreciate MOD files for line regiments and other Corps will not have the benefit of similar contents.

    I’m personally sad that RHQ CG didn’t follow the lead of SG and share their files with FMP so I could get more of an insight into my fathers 9 years service with them 1937/46 (POW 1941/45) than provided by the handful of forms I obtained from RHQ CG about 10 years ago.

    You may be interested in the attached photo of Right Flank 2nd SG at Aldershot 1936 given to my mother by her cousin.

    Best Wishes

    Steve
     

    Attached Files:

  9. I don't know much about the CG files and what they have done with them but I can certainly find out for you. I believe the National Army Museum may have them. Even if they're not on FMP they should still be accessible in some way. standby for an update.
     
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  10. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    In November 2022 I applied for the records of a Royal Artillery man who left the Army in about 1925. Today I received an e-mail to say the records have been transferred to the National Archives and that I should apply to them if I still wanted the records. An e-mail address at TNA was provided.
     
  11. George Satt

    George Satt Member

    Hi All, I recently received some Army service records after a 20 month wait! The documents that I received totalled 6 pages made up of 4 pages of Army Form E 531 and 2 pages of Army Form B200 B. Is this the type of content you would expect for a serviceman who was in the Royal Engineers for around 1 year. I have seen people talk about other forms such as Army Form B103 etc. which provide better detail on movements / postings etc. is something that I should've received, amongst other documents? Thanks
     
  12. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Yes you should expect B103. Likely only the one page as his movements/postings would not be extensive on such short service. His statement of service may also cover all the units he served with.
     
    George Satt likes this.
  13. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    This week I received a reply from a lady at The National Archives. How do I know it it a lady? Apart from the feminine first name, as well as contact details she included the useful information, 'Pronouns: She/Her'.

    Some points from the e-mail:
    • "We believe we hold the record..."
    • "We are handling your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000."
    • "As this record is dated to an individual over 115 years old, the search for this record will be subject to our paid search system. We estimate the cost for this paid search will be £24.35."
    • "Depending on the size of the records, a further charge may apply for copies to be sent to you via email."
    • "Please note that we cannot guarantee that our search will be successful."

      Richard (Pronouns He/Him)
     
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  14. Stephen Paternoster

    Stephen Paternoster Active Member

    I’m still waiting for TNA to reply to me about my great grandfathers service record under FOI I can’t stand whole pronoun thing.
     
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  15. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Perhaps the Martians were wrong.

    Screenshot 2023-05-27 at 00.47.37.png



    "Captain something strange has appeared on the earth scanner

    >Let me observe

    >Where is this place?

    >It is called Hunter's Field.

    >Do you realise what this means, gentlemen?

    >What does it mean?

    >It means that there is intelligent life on earth

    {Much Martian laughter}

    Pronouns in pictures, next, I suppose:

    你叫他什麼

    ( Chinese for "what do you call him?" )
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2023
  16. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    The National Archives Advisory Council February 2023 meeting minutes have been published, very soon after the meeting, compared with the usual delay of at least six months.

    https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/advisory-council-minutes-2023-02.pdf

    "8. Freedom of Information (FOI) Panel Update
    8.1. The Council received a paper providing an overview of the issues and work undertaken by Panels, which included the most recent service statistics, and responded to a number of matters raised by Panel members.
    8.2. Additional to the summary of the Council’s FOI panels, Ms Browne noted that the MoD Service Personnel records remained popular. This had given rise to a substantial proportion of the FOI requests The National Archives was receiving and details for how to make these requests were listed on the website. Members asked about the type of information present in the records. Ms Browne confirmed this was largely personal information, but there were occasionally other relevant exemptions. The sensitivity of the information contained in the records and living relatives who might be affected depended on the age of the records. Often it was noted that FOI requesters self-declared if they were a family, and in some of these cases they could confirm proof of death.
    8.3. Aside from the MoD Service Personnel records, The National Archives continued to receive a high number of cases for FOI requests. As part of the Council’s ongoing FOI work she noted the ICO had provided a decision notice recently regarding royal wills and this would be circulated to members. She also noted that in cases applying S38 one only needed to go to the nearest degree of effect and any subsequent effects on family members did not affect the application of S38.
    8.4. Members noted it was important that the quality of applications from departments was maintained.
    8.5. The Council noted the report.
    ACTION: The Secretariat to circulate the ICO decision notice.
    ACTION: The Secretariat to note the item recommended for a future spot check."
     
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  17. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    In November 1922 I applied to the MoD for a service record. The following April, they contacted me to say the records had been transferred to TNA and that I should contact them, which I did.

    In May TNA asked for an online payment of £24.35 which I paid.

    Today (14 July) I received an e-mail with a link for the service record.

    It was worth the eight month delay. He served in the Royal Artillery for 21 years so there are 28 pages in the pdf file.

    Some people have said that TNA will not release the service record as it has medical information included or they redact any medical notes. However, in this record is:

    • Medical Board Report AF W5134.
    • Medical History Sheet AF B178.
    • Medical History AF B178.
    Interestingly in the e-mail they say:
    What does this mean for the digitisation of service records? I suppose that one of the genealogy companies will take on the responsibility and scan them in a “logical” order.
     
  18. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Pleased to hear you’ve had such a good result.

    I think your receipt of the medical papers may be against MOD policy but now that the files are with TNA they may be applying their own rules.

    WW1 era files I’ve seen on Ancestry/FMP via TNA do have medical papers - if they have survived WW2 bombing.

    Was your subject born over 116 years ago?

    Steve
     
  19. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Yes, he was born over 116 years ago. He served 1904 to 1925, so not included in the WW1 series of files of which many were bomb damaged.
    Richard
     
  20. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Thanks for the reply Richard.

    The DOB is the game changer. They can release medical info on a person born over 116 years ago.

    You may have seen a few posts from members getting an initial reply from NA to the effect that a service file is closed to a date that coincides with 116 years after the subjects DOB.

    The applicant then needs to submit a FOI request so that the file can be reviewed and hopefully partially released. I’d anticipate the medical papers would be withheld. I am aware that some members have FOI pending so I’ll be interested in what they receive in the file.

    Steve
     
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