Location of D-Day photos by Sgt. Jim Christie and Others

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by Cee, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Thanks for this, needed a good place to start with it!

    In conclusion I think the Cine Pan was taken from around 49.25414, -0.28188


    Some Things to Note
    - The pan shows what is likely a Tonga Hamilcar (furthest right), its wingspan when unrotated matches up to the expected ~36m (~33m in the pan, 36m when unrotated).
    - The pan shows at least 1 glider towards the back of the drop zone which I have not seen an aerial photograph of.
    - Assuming I have the correct location the viewshed analysis confirms the cine photographer could not see any of the gliders on DZ X (possibly why these closer gliders were not also filmed) but may have been able to see part of one of the gliders on DZ Y.
    - The shadow off the closest fence post (and brightest part of the pan image to the left) suggest the footage was shot in the morning between 8am-10am (shadow analysis). (does this therefore suggest it was slightly overcast in the morning of the 6th of June before the clouds broke into more sun?)

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Method for Locating Cine Photographer - For anyone interested and in case I made a mistake somewhere I have provided a breakdown of the methods used to locate the photographer below:
    (Software, some of this was done by hand the rest in QGIS)


    1) I have mapped the known Tonga glider positions using triangulation from aerials and other data sources.

    2) To figure out which gliders on the map correspond to which in the cine footage this involved going back and forth between the aerials and pan shot checking every gliders direction, notable damage, and position, and comparing this to the pan to make sure they all lined up with each other. In one instance a bearing could be taken between the tail of one glider and the wing tip of another, this gives a straight line through the area on which the Cine Photographer must located somewhere along its length (or at least near to it given the slight error involved in estimating the bearing).

    3) Further bearings with higher degrees of error were then taken and used to narrow the search area. For instance where there is a gap between 2 gliders a bearing can be taken indicating the photographer must be to the east / west left / right of this line as if they weren't the pan shot would have shown these gliders overlapping. In isolation this doesn't give much more information but having done a few of these it is quite easy to narrow the search area. I did look for other more precise bearings as this would have made things a lot easier, however did not spot any until the end.

    4) With the search area narrowed to around a 500m triangle, further analysis of the foreground from the Pan could be undertaken. This involved counting the number of fence lines between the cine photographer and Orne Valley. Which I estimated to be 6/7 (although could be as low as 4 if some are instead glider poles). Again this doesn't get us to a solution but does narrow the search area a bit further.

    5) With the search area now reduced to only a few 100m I was fairly confident the location was adjacent to the road (Now D35) and looking at another aerial assumed it was fairly likely the footage was shot from the small layby with access into the fields east of the road (probably by a gate). This access and layby is clearly visible on later aerials as this was used heavily by Allied jeeps leaving a strong dust scar after the glider landings on DZ W. This gives a suspected location of around 49.25414, -0.28188 (as above).

    6) With the suspected location, I aimed to verify this using viewpoint and viewshed analysis. This required a Digital Terrain Model (DTM) which I had previously obtained from OpenTopography data (Home | OpenTopography). Dataset Citation: European Space Agency, Sinergise (2021). <i>Copernicus Global Digital Elevation Model</i>. Distributed by OpenTopography. https://doi.org/10.5069/G9028PQB. Accessed: 2022-12-17

    7) A viewpoint was then created at 49.25414, -0.28188 assuming the camera to be ~1.6m off the ground, and 2 viewsheds created. The first viewshed showing all areas the suspected cine photographer would not have been able to see the ground surface and the second all areas where the cine photographer could have seen a 5.9m high Horsa Glider. These were overlain to create the final viewshed which was subsequently compared to the cine footage pan. This viewshed map was then used to check that for the given location there weren't any gliders visible in the pan that shouldn't be there or any that should be in the pan that weren't visible. If this analysis showed any differences it would indicate that the location was incorrect, this was not the case.

    8) During the viewpoint analysis checking stage, I also noticed the first large group of gliders (centre left) ends with a relatively intact glider orthogonal to the camera, its tale sticks up and there is a very small gap between the tail and the first set of big trees. Assuming the position of the cine photographer is correct, these trees are very likely to be the start of the trees along the back / behind the quarry and their position including the expected small gap fits very well with the suspected cine cameraman location. This combined with the other circumstantial evidence makes me fairly confident we have the correct location (or at least are very close to it).

    Please bare in mind, the viewshed is based off modern topographic mapping so any major changes to elevation i.e. the expansion of the Quarry infilling of the quarry can impact on what is shown as visible in some areas.

    Please also note this analysis and method have not been peer reviewed.

    The viewshed analysis and some of the bearing lines used for verification can be scene in the plan Below / Attached:

    Best Regards,
    SH
     

    Attached Files:

    Cee likes this.
  2. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    SH,

    Wow that is quite a lot of work and very technical. I don't have many good Tonga aerials of LZ 'N'. Here are a couple that cover area in question.

    Tonga LZN-1.jpg Tonga LZN-2.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    S Hayward likes this.
  3. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    That's a new one I haven't seen! and shows the 1 I was missing that is visible on the pan. The crashed (what we assumed to be) CN 40 shows up in that too.
     
  4. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Yo,

    Think there is a Tonga Hamilcar there as well. Could be wrong but don't think CN40 shows up in the German pan. Does it cut off just before that ... not sure?

    Tonga Gliders.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    S Hayward likes this.
  5. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I'm pretty confident that is a Tonga Hamilcar, its the same one / position as the one on the far right of the pan footage, top down based on your aerial above (once flattened) the wings are ~36m as we would expect. You are also right that the footage cuts off just before showing us the area where CN 40 would be located.

    The glider behind this Hamilcar, (top left in your aerial) is also a Hamilcar too as its the one you ID'd in post #26 also visible in the back of the high rez version of B 5199 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944

    That gives us 2 of the 4 total early Hamilcar's, which apparently landed within just 160m of each other!

    BR
    SH
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
    Cee likes this.
  6. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    I dug a little deeper and it seems only two of the four Tonga Hamilcars made it to LZ 'N', CNs 500 and 503. CN 502 broke its tow rope in England and CN 501 came down badly off course in St. Vaast-en-Auge (more info here).

    2/Lt. T.W. Taylorson and Sgt. R. Simpson were the pilots of CN 500. They landed fine and then went to help CN 503 which came down nearby and was having difficulties unloading. S/Sgt. E. England and Sgt. J. Hill were the glider pilots of CN 503. There is more information in the book, "Operation Tonga" by Shannon and Wright.

    Hamilcars CNs 500, 503.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
    S Hayward likes this.
  7. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    As pointed out by SH and for what it's worth another closer, on-the-ground view of CN 500 which arrived in a pretty good state.

    bhc007076-crop.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    S Hayward likes this.
  8. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Looking into some of the un-located Christie pictures B 5235 has conveniently been already located in a separate Thread
    B 5235 Normandy Horsa - "5" Churchill's Reply.

    The wall and glider seen in B 5235 are at~ 49.24707, -0.24810

    The series of photographs B 5050 to B 5053 by Captain Evans also capturers this area and the first photograph in this series B5050 shows the glider seen in B 5235 is named "Churchills Reply"
    B 5050 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944.

    The cards for these photos state the location as St Anbin d' Arquenay, which around 3.1km north east of the photographs actual location(s). The IWM Object Description differs from the card and states they are taken in La Haute Ecarde which is accurate.

    Incidentally the next photo from this set by Evans B 5051 shows a nice side view of "Churchills Reply" looking towards the rest of the glider field and in the background also catches the tail section of (CN 70) General Gale's Glider in the top left.
    B 5051 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944

    If the date on the photos are correct "6th of June", it suggests the photographs were taken just after the Mallard Lift, as the glider behind CN 70 (with wing running parallel to the direction the tail portion of CN70 is facing), is not visible on the Tonga Aerials. A clearer picture of this relatively intact Horsa is available as it is the glider centre of frame in this previously located photograph B 5204: D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944

    B 5052 presents a bit of a challenge to locate - It is also taken by Evans from just in front of the left wing of one of the gliders, the leading edge of this wing shows damage, (a glider pole collision maybe?). I think that it is taken from under the right wing of "Churchills Reply" but my confidence on this is very low. None of the other photographs of "Churchills Reply" appear to show this wing in full so identification based on the damaged may be difficult.
    B 5052 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944

    B 5053 looks to be a view across the garden associated with the house seen in B 5050. This house is still standing to this day, with what look to be slightly altered dormer windows and the removal of the chimney pots. If I am right about the location of the angle of B 5053 then it must be looking East / North east, as there is a (Mallard) glider (not visible in photo B 5053) which is located at the bottom of the wider enclosed area (potentially a paddock) due east of the garden.
    B 5053 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944

    Assuming the dates are correct, It does make me wonder if Christie and Evans were both in this area at around the same time. Whilst Christie returned to this location on the 8th of June to take B 5235, presumably after photographing the bridges and gliders on X and Y the same day (see post #36 for links and locations of these), Christie was in this general area on the 6th of June taking B 5203 and B 5204, so its possible Christie and Evans run into each other, I'm probably incorrect with this and definitely just
    hypothesising but maybe that's why Christie started heading back south after taking B 5204.

    Best Regards
    SH
     
    Cee likes this.
  9. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    B 5052 which can be seen below I thought might be CN 2 which is discussed in this post and also here. Hopefully on the right track?

    B 5052.jpg

    Added - I suppose it is possible that Evans and Christie crossed paths on the LZ but there is no record of it that I'm aware of.

    Regards ...

    Edit - B 5052 may actually show the wing of "Churchill's Reply". See below in following posts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    S Hayward likes this.
  10. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Its definitely the right area but I'm worried the damage to the wing differs enough I don't think it is the same glider the film still was shot from (noting B 5052 has damage directly through one of the D Day stripes whereas the damage on the film / still (glider CN 2 being stood on) is slightly to the inside edge of the D Day stripes. I think your previous work on CN 2 and the position of the tank makes it likely CN 2 is correct and B 5052 is under a different (by likely close by) wing.

    I'm thinking the Gale glider tail is to the right of the image, mostly blocked by the camo netting with CN 2 just out of frame to the left. What do you recon?

    Best Regards,
    SH
     
  11. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Oi,

    Yes it is curious about the wing damage in relation to stripe positioning in the two pics. As for the glider partially blocked by the camo (?) netting rolls I always thought it was one farther south and perhaps the same as stood on by Christie when shooting B 5593 or as pointed out here?

    Wing Damage.jpg Wing Damage-2 - B 5052.jpg View South from CN2.jpg

    Regards ...
     
  12. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    SH,

    "I'm thinking the Gale glider tail is to the right of the image, mostly blocked by the camo netting with CN 2 just out of frame to the left. What do you recon?"

    Not sure what glider you are referring to there?

    Edit later - Ok I think I know what you mean now. If that is Gale's glider tail (red arrow) the pic was probably taken near port wing of "Churchill's Reply" as you previously thought and may explain differences in wing damage. May have to make adjustments in certain posts.

    Gale's Tail Maybe B 5052.jpg

    Another astute observation on your part if true. Wonder now what else I'm missing?

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  13. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Yeah your arrow is where I meant. I'm not certain its the Gale Glider as there is a lot of similarity in removed tail sections. "if true" certainly still an if for now.

    If it is the Gale Glider, and the picture is from under the wing of "Churchill's Reply" I have just realised the flattened grass in the foreground is probably where they dropped the equipment down as seen in D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944 . This may explain the camo netting too if that is where they moved it all too? Not yet definitive but potentially a bit more.

    Best Regards,
    SH : )
     
    Cee likes this.
  14. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    A netting roll or two under the Horsa or an active imagination on my part?

    B 5050-Camo Net.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    S Hayward likes this.
  15. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hello,

    An aerial with lines for B 5052.

    IWM B 5052 - Lines.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    S Hayward likes this.
  16. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Hi : ),

    "A netting roll or two under the Horsa or an active imagination on my part?"

    could be netting, although might just be shadows off the grass, hard to tell but something mottled under there.

    An aerial with lines for B 5052.
    I might be mistaken here but I think the extent is slightly wider on the east side.

    I've been looking into Sgt Mapham's Photos a bit today and determined most of the set (5038-5044) were taken around 49.29741, -0.30286 well away from the Orne Valley. 3 of the photographs however show what is presumably Operation Mallard aircraft and for now I have linked 1 of these for convenience: D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944 I think they must be looking towards Drop Zones W and N somewhere near Saint-Aubin-d'Arquenay.

    On a separate note B 5049 taken by Cpt Evans show some distinctive trees in the background (possibly those on the far / eastern side of DZ N) putting the photo potentially near 49.2454, -0.25089 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944

    BR,
    SH
     
    Cee likes this.
  17. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Could never figure out B 5048 by Mapham. B 5049 allegedly by Evans I thought was taken between CN2 and Gale's tail, but the lines aren't working out at the moment ... ? Though on LZ 'N' as you say, going by background treeline.

    Regards ...
     
    S Hayward likes this.
  18. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Only possible I have found for B 5048 so far is this tree: Google Maps

    "allegedly" is this just due to the uncertainty or is there specific reason to suspect it is mislabelled by the IWM? I thought the same area for it, but as you say it doesn't quite fit and the aerial cuts off before the cluster of gliders along that east west road (Rue du Bac du Port).

    Here are also some additional locations this time for photos by Sgt Alan S Johnson. the IWM cards suggest they were taken on 12/07/1944. They depict Pegasus bridge, some close ups of the gliders on DZ X, and rather sombrely, the recently dug graves at Ranville.

    X Y Z id Disc Link
    -0.27505 49.24288 0 B 7032 Sgt Alan S Johnson D Day Photos
    -0.27302 49.2411 0 B 7033 THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944
    -0.27322 49.2412 0 B 7034 PEGASUS BRIDGE AT BENOUVILLE
    -0.27336 49.24134 0 B 7035 THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944
    -0.27356 49.2414 0 B 7036 PEGASUS BRIDGE AT BENOUVILLE
    -0.25814 49.23142 0 B 7037 CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL AT RANVILLE
    -0.25813 49.23113 0 B 7038 CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL AT RANVILLE
    -0.25837 49.23112 0 B 7039 THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-1945
    -0.25809 49.23142 0 B 7040 - Behind Memorial / Grave seen in B 7037 THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-1945

    BR,
    SH
     
    Cee likes this.
  19. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Here's a compare of sorts to show that two of the gliders in B 5049 are CNs 2 and 70 (Gale).

    bhc007070-Crop.jpg B 5049-marked.jpg

    Regards ...

    P.S. - I can't keep up
     
    S Hayward likes this.
  20. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    S Hayward likes this.

Share This Page