Premature artillery rounds - 25pdr

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Volitans, Feb 5, 2023.

  1. Volitans

    Volitans Member

    Good afternoon all,

    Continuing to read through the 111th Fd Regt diary, which my Grandad served with.
    He was injured with a shrapnel wound to the right thigh on 21 April 1943 in Tunisia.
    The war diary for this date reads as follows: "212 Bty had one premature which killed one man and injured one or two others".

    I was wondering if anyone had any other information on how prematures could occur? Was it dodgy manufacturing, or poor handling/procedures?

    Reading up on the little info I have on premature rounds, I believe these could occur inside of the barrel, which would "cause the counterweight to shatter and kill the gun layer and the gun loader" (BBC - WW2 People's War - Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner) or could occur immediately after being fired ("Tom Donnelly received a shell splinter in his side from one or our own shells that prematurely exploded, just after leaving the muzzle" - BBC - WW2 People's War - Memoirs of a Gunner - Chapter 6a - Harry Wood)

    Any thoughts welcome :)
     
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  2. tankbarrell

    tankbarrell Junior Member

    upload_2023-2-5_16-24-25.jpeg
    upload_2023-2-5_16-24-52.jpeg
    upload_2023-2-5_16-25-12.jpeg
    upload_2023-2-5_16-25-34.jpeg
    These are all 155mm M1 Howitzers but show the effects of an in chamber premature, quite devastating. Very likely from a faulty fuze.
     
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  3. hutt

    hutt Member

    I will need to find the diary entry but I think I have seen a reference to a round exploding having been left in the gun during a pause in an intense barrage and overheating.
     
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  4. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    After the breakout from Anzio.

    On the evening of the 3rd June 1944 F Troop suffered losses, a faulty safety fuse on a percussion shell resulted in an explosion
    when it accidentally struck against the outside of the breech when loading the gun, killing Sgt Oatridge, Sgt Fox and Bdr Lee.

    This wasn't the first time nor probably the last.
    In the 60's during my training with 267 Field Regiment, it was emphasised to the point of virtual terror by the gun No1.
    Every Round MUST be placed CLEANLY into the breech without the hitting the side of the breech block.
    Very easy to do when trying to load at speed, particularly if like me, you are a bit on the short side!
    You had to lean across the trail to get to the breech.

    The older guys were deeply suspicious of 1944 Ammunition which was still in use.
    (Apparently like .303, much of it manufactured in India).
    They had witnessed the results.
    You had to lean across the trail to get to the breech, 25 pounds becomes very heavy after while
    (like a Bren Gun in weight but the size of a 2 litre pop bottle).

    25 Pounder Gun Crew
    No. 1 - the commander, makes large traverses of the gun
    and normally positioned to the rear.
    No. 2 - holds the rammer, as well as operating the breech lever
    and stands to the right of the gun.
    No. 3 - the 'Layer', sat on the wooden seat on the left-hand side of the gun,
    adjusts the sights, signals adjustments to the No. 1 in big traverses
    and fires the gun.
    No. 4 - the 'Loader' places the shell cleanly into the breech ensuring it does
    not hit the side of breech. This can cause a detonation if the safety device is
    faulty and was not uncommon on wartime ammunition.
    No. 5 - passes ammunition to the No.4 checks the fuse and removes the
    safety cap.
    No. 6 - the second-in-command (2IC) sets the fuses selects the charge
    combination as well as being responsible for the movement and braking of
    the trailer.
    For normal horizontal firing the gun is mounted on a firing platform so that it
    can be turned towards the target easily on uneven or soft ground. There is
    a lever at the back (trail) of the gun for the No1 to move it.
    The platform is lifted and locked in the up position for transit.
    When in position it is dropped and the gun pulled back onto it so that the
    wheels are running on the outer edge of the mounting ring.

    A "Bad Ram" (where the round entered the breech at an angle) could also cause premature explosions
    but usually in the barrel. One of the reasons for the gun shield The round would corkscrew as it came out.
    It was more noticeable as the shell left the gun, or in the OP.
    You could hear it coming (sounded like a helicopter) you got your head down, in case it dropped short.

    Below: Gun Crew member No4 to the fore, holding a shell "Direct Action" (Percussion) Fuse.
    Note the button on the nose.
    A screw on cap covered this when in storage and was removed by No4 prior to insertion into the breech.

    No1 to recruit "Dont drop the bleedin' thing now! yer prat"" place it in the breech for the Rammer to make it secure.

    Sgt Allen gun crew.jpeg


    Snr NCO's relaxing Palestine.jpg
    Senior NCO's relaxing in Palestine mostly No1 on the Guns.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
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  5. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Prematures tended to occur with incorrectly filled or manufactured ammunition, and also with ammunition that had been in storage too long. As far as I can tell, the 5.5." Medium Gun was particularly prone to these.
     
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  6. hutt

    hutt Member

    Diary entries re premature shell detonation attached. All from 70 Medium Regiment diary while in Sicily or mainland. The entry that notes the heat of a gun setting off a shell is on the 3rd September

    DSC08499.JPG DSC08499.JPG DSC08501.JPG DSC08511.JPG DSC08376.JPG Italy
     
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  7. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Photos #2 all appear to be American, first photo looks like Anzio. In which case, likely to be a result of Counter Battery Fire.
    Are you sure that they are all 155 M1 Howitzer

    I know nothing about them, just curious

    155 mm gun M1 - Wikipedia

    These were use extensively in Italy particularly at Anzio and at Galuzzo Florence in 1944.

    Monte Grande Sector overlooking Bologna.
    Major Shepherd Battery Commander 266 Battery 67th Field Regiment RA did some firing of American 155’s
    through Lt Philips US Liason Officer at 2 IB HQ to great success, demolishing houses at Sorti with three direct hits and one so close that the walls fell down.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  8. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Closeup of a 25 pdr breech block. The Rammer is placed across the entrance of the breech to signify that the gun is at rest.

    You can clearly see that the carriage has to be leant across to place the round, then the cartridge, into the breech.
    It is then rammed into position so that the shell stays in place to allow the cartridge to be loaded in behind it.
    No2 then closes the breech raising his arm to signal ready to fire.
    No1 waits for a signal from No3 (Layer) before raising his arm to tell the GPO that the gun is ready to fire.
    25pdr Breech block.jpg

    The video in the link below clearly shows the working parts of a much unloved gun, seemingly dragged out of the scrapyard.
    (Apparently on display somewhere).
    The TA weren't anywhere near as strict as the Regulars but the BSM's would have cried watching this video!


    BSM's BEWARE!

    Even during the battles at Anzio the guns were kept clean.
    "The guns too are magnificently dug in. Looking across the position one can see only the parapets of tawny earth,
    the camouflage and pieces of the gun gleaming just below ground level".

    Cleaned ready for handover.jpg
    Cleaning ready for handover.
    Fayid January 1946
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  9. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    Different war but, I hope, of interest; we believe my wife’s great uncle was killed in 1918 when his gun exploded. The Brigade diary entry for the day he and one other was killed reads “D/181 had one 4.5 How burst - 2 men killed and two seriously injured”.

    We believe the diary entry, attached (courtesy of The National Archives), must refer to her great uncle as that was his Battery and Brigade and his grave lies right next to another from D/181 killed that very same day, so too much of a coincidence.

    Apparently the 4.5 Howitzer was prone to such accidents. A telling post on a similar thread on the GWF states, and I quote:

    According to Farndale's history of the Royal Artillery, the crews of the 4.5 inch howitzers called themselves the "suicide club" as due to the low quality of the ammunition, it frequently exploded in their own guns. These premature bursts and the chance of dropping shells on your own infantry put immense strain on the guncrews.

    ED7E0E24-777E-43AE-A62F-18DAE5CD03EC.jpeg
     
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  10. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I will happily stand corrected if I am wrong but I think that most, if not all, Medium and Heavy guns used bagged propellant (as did Royal Navy guns). As an engineer I suspect that leakage of propellant into the breech firing and locking mechanisms caused premature wear.
    This made them more vulnerable to premature ignition due to overheated guns or sparks created when loaded.
    I seem to recall watching Heavies being loaded a mile or so away on Sennybridge Ranges.
    It took two or more men to load the shell onto the breech then two or more to ram it.
    Followed by a bag charge.
    Propellant wasn't very high in flash point but once it went off the fire would spread rapidly.
    (It was a offence to use loose propellant to light cookers. some accidents did occur).
    Counter battery fire was most often setting the propellant on fire in the limbers, according to the History of the 67th Field Regiment, rather than direct hits on the guns.
    Although Field Regiments often took a pasting. Due to their forward positions
    Marradi Lamone Valley. Advance up the Arrow Route.
    "Every Battery had casualties daily but they were the only guns supporting both 1st Division and the 8th Indian Division infantry. There was no more space to move to in the flooded valley. They had to stand and fire whilst under enemy observation.
    The enemy were firing six guns into 265 Bty area onto both troops without let up for four hours.
    Four of their seven guns in use at the time were damaged. “A” Troop Command Post suffered a direct hit.
    Most of the limbers caught fire and ammunition began to explode, eventually the Battery had to retire to nearby railway tunnels.
    BSM Andrews, Sgt Oakley, Sgt Howes and Sgt Packer were all seriously wounded, plus others with minor injuries.
    446 received all the rounds that went over 265 but 266 were able to keep firing. 265 moved out under cover of darkness returning to A Echelon for food, rest and repairs".
    Marradi fell to the 2nd North Staffs on 24th September but further progress was hampered by the weather and a new enemy Division rushed to the area to stop the Allies advance.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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