Buffs Battledress insignia mid to late war - general representation

Hello all,

I am putting together (slowly) a general representation of a soldier mid to late war - I have various bits, 1940pattern austerity BD, most of a mid to late war dated 1937 pattern webbing etc. and I am now wondering about insignia.
I have a family connection with the buffs in both ww1 and ww2 in both 1st and 2nd battalions

I was wondering about just stitching on some printed red/white Buffs shoulder flashes only as just a generic representation of a buffs soldier. Is that acceptable? I think that would have been done at home? (Going by the Brian Davies book)

Or does anyone have a suggestion what would be better, I was going to avoid going to far down the rabbit hole of recreating a specific badged up uniform of a specific time point of a specific family member (none of whom I knew/met) and wanted just a ‘nod’ to the family connection incorporated into my collection/display (mainly ww1 artillery and ww2 home front)

I did think about maybe 78th division or 36 Indian infantry division badging as a) quite easy to achieve and b) the buffs were involved but also the east surreys of which my wife had an uncle who served at monte casino so would sort of cover both as an homage?

I don’t mind using repro insignia so can purchase something appropriate and save my original printed titles as just a collectors item

any pointers?
Thanks
Ed

 

Thinking about it I might just do a generic representation - pic a photo on IWM and recreate it for mid to late war Italy or NW Europe

 

You want to avoid the white on red mudguard titles for an Italy impression. Not worn during the war in 78th Div. for sure. What is your link with the Buffs?

No Buffs infantry battalions fought in NW Europe. Some did as converted to other arms e.g. 8th Buffs as 9th Medium Regiment RA and 7th Buffs as 141 RAC with crocodile flamethrower tanks.

In Italy 5th Buffs were part of 78th Div but did not wear the white on red titles. I think there was also a Buffs battalion in 56th Div (Black Cats).

 

1 Buffs were in 4 Indian Division and later 1 Armd Div (again) both in Italy; 2 Buffs were in 44 Div up to Alamein, and were then transferred to Burma (via Syria, Iraq, Iran and India) as part of 36 Indian Div which became 36 (UK) Div; 4 Buffs were effectively lost in Leros; 5 Buffs were indeed in 78 Div. No Buffs in 56 Div until, briefly, right at the end of the war (1 Buffs). There was no 3 Buffs after about 1908.
Chris

 

Thanks both for your replies

the link is 2 buffs in both wars - won’t go into the ww1 detail, but I spent a good bit of time this evening going over all my family notes - the ww2 link is 2 buffs with an uncle on my fathers side KIA at El Alamein in October 1942 so I think the best portrayal (for me) will actually be the 44th division period in late 1942 when 2 buffs were with 132nd brigade. Sorry for some reason in my head I had that he died later on and in Italy, but that was actually one of my wife’s uncles - apologies

which brings me on to my next question - Battledress types - what would have been worn them? KD? Battle dress? Austerity pattern?

 

I think I will do something like this for 2 buffs in North Africa 1942

 

That is absolutely spot on thank you,

the upside down triangle is the buffs regimental flash? I haven’t seen that one before?

also I am
Going to have to buy a deac bren gun now with AA mount!!

 

Yes regimental flash is the blue and buff triangle. Difficult to find!

 

Will give Derek at montyslocker a call over the weekend and discuss a repro for that item I think, as a stand in.

Thanks for your help

 

Don't stitch anything, original or repro, to an original battle dress!
If you want to be a re-enactor, buy repro battle dress and repro insignia.

 

Do you have any photos of your relatives in military uniform? I have a particular interest in 78th Div.

Remember to avoid the white on red titles on your BD impression - these were later war and not for North Africa/Italy as a rule.

The Buffs shoulder sliders in the picture Owen posted, were used instead and you can find original examples.

Have a good look at Imperial War Museum photo archive for inspiration...great source for setting up an accurate impression for the time period.

 

no, not ww2 I don’t sorry

 

You are right. I got the utility pattern BD cheap so didn’t really give that much thought.
Maybe it would be better to put any insignia (repro or original) in a picture frame to display alongside a bare Battledress as a depiction of the insignia that _would_ have been worn?

it’s not for reenactment - more a display.

 

Have dug into this a bit more and have had some help working it out.
I found a great photo in the Brian L.Davies book that shows a 2nd battalion buffs serjeant with the insignia of 44th Home Counties division, it shows quite clearly the inverted two colour triangle aswell

I wonder if someone can help with pointers to see if I can work out who this man is - is that a military medal he is holding?

A serjeant in 2nd buffs - the insignia indicates he was 132nd brigade, 44th Home Counties so presumably the time line is July 1941 to Jan 1943 but he could have won the MM prior to this and also not had a his serjeant stripes?

I think this is early part of 1941 perhaps as the AoS stripes are in the location for the period when formation flashes weren’t used. Looks to me like he has just sewn his formation flash above the AoS and not moved everything else down?

 

Nice one Owen- I will see if I can find out any more details or a photo - I don’t need to identify the man, but it would be nice to know

I think the second man fits a bit better - (maybe) because of the insignia. The first chap died in feb 1941 and I don’t *think* the 44th Home Counties flash was worn until late 1941 (prior to that it was just slip on black/khaki shoulder slips, AoS stripes and regimental flash I think?). Does that sound right?

 

yep - agreed. Fantastic. Thanks for confirming - it’s great what can be worked out from insignia and a glimpse of a medal!

 

Owen
I found this photo
MR CHURCHILL'S 69TH BIRTHDAY IN TEHRAN. 1 DECEMBER 1943, TEHRAN, IRAN. OFFICERS AND MEN OF THE PERSIA AND IRAQ COMMAND WHO FORMED THE GUARD DURING THE PRIME MINISTER'S STAY AT THE BRITISH LEGATION IN TEHRAN, PRESENTED HIM WITH BIRTHDAY GIFTS WHEN HE CELEBRATED HIS 69TH BIRTHDAY THERE. THE REGIMENTS IN THE PAI COMMAND WHICH PRESENTED THE GIFTS WERE THE 4TH HUSSARS, 2ND BATT BUFFS, AND THE 3RD BATT 11TH SIKH REGIMENT (RATTRAY SIKHS).


On the IWM of Churchill’s birthday in December 1943
But zooming in on this chaps arm appears to have the Home Counties divisional badge and 2 A of S stripes and the 2nd battalion buffs inverted triangle. I thought the 44th was disbanded in Jan 1943 so how has this chap still got that insignia nearly a year later?? Or is that oval at the top now something else? I can see something ‘on it’ but don’t know if it’s just an artifact of the light or something. It doesn’t look like the Persia and Iraq command elephant either?

any thoughts?

by this time the 2nd Buffs were under the 26th Indian infantry brigade as part of 6th Indian division - I wonder if the divisional imaginary at the top of his arm is the 6th Indian? I can’t find a photo of that insignia? The rest would fit as the 26th was the middle brigade in the 6th division