Name search pre 617 Sdn Ldr / WC retired at Lismore NSW Au.

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Fred Wilson, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    I am desperately searching for the name (and Squadron) of a Squadron Leader, later (Wing Commander I believe)
    of a crew which transferred to 617 Squadron Crew, The Dambusters in the later years_ 1944 -1945. (Pretty sure it was not actually in 617 Sqdn.)

    He retired to a Macadamia Nut and Banana farm not many Km North East of (Bexhill and) Lismore NSW Australia.

    Bomb Aimer, 163530 P/O later F/O Joseph (Joe) T.W.L. Merchant, of the 1944 Dambusters squadron lived across the lake from us and asked me,
    whilst on his death bed succumbing to cancer here in Vernon BC, to visit one of his Wing Commanders and carry his thanks to him on one of my holidays in OZ.

    His Pilot: J.19530 F/L Gordon R. PRICE GD.P From 5 L.F.S 09.12.44
    of 617 days passed away circa 1950. One of Joe Merchant's grandchildren is named after Gordon Price.

    I am in touch with the Tom Price, son of Gordon Price. He has a CD his dad had - that has the official roster of 617 wing.

    I am pretty sure Joe Merchant was with an RCAF Squadron.

    I spent a heartrending day with his Wing Commander in 1992, one of the most emotional and memorable days of my life, while we toured his Macadamia Nut and Banana plantation.

    He said that when he was promoted to Wing Commander, the only reason (he said) was that he was the oldest pilot still living, 23 years of age at the time, in the Squadron.

    He said he still received a steady stream of letters and phone calls from old crew members, and would politely reminisce but in fact could not remember a single name or face.
    In the war, all crewmen were referred to by the last three digits of their enlistment number only - never, ever by name.
    Neither would he ever look directly at the face of a squadron crew member.

    He said this was an absolute pre-requisite for emotional survival - the losses were that high. Oh... that hurts. Hard to grasp how tough that job must have been.

    So he could not remember Joe, but he DID did did remember Joe's wife Mary Merchant.
    - When she walked into a room she just took over the place. A joyful, uplifting wonderful person to have around... with a magic sense of humor.

    I will go to my grave owing it to Joe to remember his name.

    - Joe went to his grave never talking about his days in the war to his family. They do not have a clue.
    - At his request there is no obituary for him. Sigh.
    - Once only, I sneakily listened in at the door, while Joe, my dad, Dr. Art (Bud) Sovereign,
    . ..and Fred Sutherland (my namesake) of the for real Dambusters traded stories of their days in the air.

    Any and all help from all the incredibly wonderful people here would forever leave me in your gratitude.
    ____________________________________

    The local Lismore NSW historical society and museum people had never heard of him.
    - Were stunned that such a person had lived there for 50 years unbeknownst to them.

    I am sure that that amazing resource person, Peter Dunn at OzAtWar, would love to get this up on his website: http://www.ozatwar.com/

    They will want a complete record of his service history, a photo etc etc to honor and remember him.
    I would, as well, like to get this to http://www.raafdb.com/

    Fred Wilson, heartsick...
    In Vernon British Columbia Canada.
    ____________________________________

    Dr, Fred Sutherland is still his same old self, living in Rocky Mountain House, Alberta Canada.
    Dad and Fred graduated together from medical school in Edmonton Alberta in about 1951.

    It is very very hard and therefore unusual for Fred to talk about his days in the war.
    He says that is because the memories re so painful he can not sleep for weeks after.

    THE DAMBUSTERS: THE CANADIAN CONTRIBUTION - Significant: http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/damsraid15.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vyXRIcIk-k

    Edit: Used "More Reply Options" to edit / Improve the topic title.
     
  2. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    If we know which squadrons Joe Merchant was with in 1944 / 1945 & that this mystery man was in the same crew could we check the ORBs to see if the crew lists shed any light?

    When you visited this chap in 1992 do you remember if he stayed in the RAAF post-war or if he immediately discharged??
     
  3. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Found this on findmypast passenger list with Joe & Mary heading for Montreal.
     

    Attached Files:

    alieneyes and Fred Wilson like this.
  4. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I would expect that a pilot promoted eventually to Wing Commander should be found as the C.O of a Bomber Command squadron.As a Squadron Leader it would be normal if on operations to have been previously a Flight Commander on an operational squadron.

    As RAAF he might be found as a W/C heading a RAAF squadron within Bomber Command,viz,Nos 455,458,460,462,463,464,466 or 467 squadrons....some saw service outside of the 1944/1945 era and not in 1944/1945 within BC.
     
  5. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Good suggestions Harry - a WW2 squadron should be commanded by a Squadron Leader, but the size of bomber squadrons quickly led to them being commanded by WGCDR. Combined with his young age he most likely would have been in one of these squadrons, but he could have been in another RAF BC SQN, but surely there must be a finite number of young Aussie WGCDRs....

    For example 467SQN (thanks Wiki) had the following:

    7 November 1942 15 August 1943 (KIA) Wing Commander C.L. Gomm, DSO, DFC
    18 August 1943 11 May 1944 (KIA) Wing Commander J.R. Balmer, OBE, DFC
    12 May 1944 8 February 1945 Wing Commander W.L. Brill, DSO, DFC & Bar
    8 February 1945 8 February 1945 (KIA) Wing Commander J.K. Douglas, DFC, AFC
    9 February 1945 4 March 1945 (KIA) Wing Commander E. Le Page Langlois, DFC
    4 March 1945 30 September 1945 Wing Commander I.A.H. Hay

    As can be seen most were KIA during the war, and Brill who has his own Wiki page, died in 1964 - leaving Hay as the only possibility out of that bunch - and he was born in 1917 so too old to be the 23 year old WGCDR late in the war (?).
     
  6. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    DaveB - I vaguely recall him saying he got out of the RAF as fast as possible.

    I am pretty sure Joe Merchant was with an RCAF Squadron.

    - Joe went to his grave never talking about his days in the war to his family. They do not have a clue.
    I have done this dance several times already. I will return to them to ask, once again, for them to get his service records / let me see them.

    PS DaveB.
    Nice try. I appreciate that. But those names don't ring a bell.

    I will give one more try to get the list of squadrons he served with. :banghead:
    Crew position and service number would be a nice bonus.
    http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/Pages/obtain-copies-military-service-files.aspx#c
     
  7. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    I should be able to compile a list of all squadrons that crew transferred from into 617 Sqdn from http://www.dambusters.org.uk/
    _____________________

    Thanks to wiki: (No hits below. Gotta be RCAF.)

    Officers commanding No. 455 Squadron RAAF

    23 May 1941 Squadron Leader J.H.W. Lawson (acting)
    1 July 1941 Wing Commander D.J. French
    1 July 1941 12 December 1941 Wing Commander J.E.C.G.F Gyll-Murray
    12 December 1941 6 February 1943 Wing Commander G.M. Lindeman
    6 February 1943 29 November 1943 Wing Commander R. Holmes
    29 November 1943 23 October 1944 Wing Commander J.N. Davenport, DSO, DFC & Bar
    October 1944 25 May 1945 Wing Commander C.G. Milson, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar

    Officers commanding no. 458 Squadron RAAF

    1 September 1941 15 February 1942 (MIA) Wing Commander N.G. Mulholland, DFC
    15 February 1942 1 June 1943 Squadron Leader L.L. Johnston
    1 June 1943 27 September 1943 Lieutenant Colonel B.R. McKenzie (SAAF)
    27 September 1943 1 July 1944 Wing Commander J. Dowling
    July 1944 9 June 1945 Wing Commander R.C. MacKay, DFC

    Officers commanding no. 460 Squadron RAAF

    November 1941 September 1942 Wing Commander A.L.G Hubbard, DSO, DFC
    September 1942 December 1942 Wing Commander K.W. Kaufman, DFC
    December 1942 February 1943 Wing Commander J.F. Dilworth, DFC
    February 1943 September 1943 Wing Commander C.E. Martin, DSO, DFC
    September 1943 8 October 1943 (POW) Wing Commander R.A. Norman, DSO, DFC
    October 1943 January 1944 Wing Commander F.A. Arthur, DFC
    January 1944 May 1944 Wing Commander H.D. Marsh, DFC
    May 1944 October 1944 Wing Commander J.K. Douglas, DFC
    October 1944 November 1944 Wing Commander K.R.J. Parsons, DSO, DFC
    November 1944 13 December 1944 (KIA) Squadron Leader J. Clark, DFC
    December 1944 January 1945 Wing Commander W.E. Roberts, DFC
    January 1945 July 1945 Wing Commander M.G. Cowan, DSO
    July 1945 October 1945 Wing Commander P.H. Swan, DSO, DFC
    July 2010 December 2010 Wing Commander P.D. Wooding, MNZM
    January 2011 January 2014 Wing Commander R.J.Elliott

    Officers commanding no. 462 Squadron RAAF in the European theatre of operations

    12 August 1944 17 January 1945 Wing Commander David Eliot Strachan Shannon, DFC, MID, RAAF
    17 January 1945 24 September 1945 Wing Commander Peter McCallum Paull, DFC(US), RAAF

    Officers commanding no. 463 Squadron RAAF

    25 November 1943 19 June 1944 Wing Commander R. "Rollo" Kingsford-Smith, DSO, DFC, AM(US)
    19 June 1944 24 June 1944 (Shot down) Flight Lieutenant D.R. Donaldson (acting), DFC, AFC
    25 June 1944 18 January 1945 Wing Commander W.A. Forbes, DSO, DFC
    18 January 1945 July 1945 Wing Commander K.M Kemp, DFC
    July 1945 25 September 1945 Wing Commander M.G. "Mick" Cowan, DSO

    Officers commanding no. 464 Squadron RAAF

    1 September 1942 26 April 1943 Wing Commander Ronald Hillyard 'Bob' Young, DSO, AFC, RAF
    27 April 1943 5 January 1944 Wing Commander Henry John Walter 'Jack' Meakin, DFC, RAF
    6 January 1944 21 June 1944 Wing Commander Robert Wilson 'Bob' Iredale, DFC, RAAF
    22 June 1944 22 August 1944 (KIA) Wing Commander Gordon 'Peter' Panitz, DFC, RAAF
    23 August 1944 14 January 1945 Wing Commander Arthur Wellesley 'Bill' Langton, DFC, AFC, RAF
    15 January 1945 27 September 1945 Wing Commander Noel Fraser Vincent, DFC, RAAF

    Officers commanding no. 466 Squadron RAAF

    10 October 1942 29 September 1943 Wing Commander R.E. Bailey
    29 September 1943 23 May 1944 Wing Commander D.T. Forsyth
    23 May 1944 20 October 1944 Wing Commander H.W. Connolly
    20 October 1944 3 April 1945 Wing Commander A. Wharton
    3 April 1945 26 October 1945 Wing Commander A. Hollings

    No. 467 Squadron was commanded by the following officers:

    7 November 1942 15 August 1943 (KIA) Wing Commander C.L. Gomm, DSO, DFC
    18 August 1943 11 May 1944 (KIA) Wing Commander J.R. Balmer, OBE, DFC
    12 May 1944 8 February 1945 Wing Commander W.L. Brill, DSO, DFC & Bar
    8 February 1945 8 February 1945 (KIA) Wing Commander J.K. Douglas, DFC, AFC
    9 February 1945 4 March 1945 (KIA) Wing Commander E. Le Page Langlois, DFC
    4 March 1945 30 September 1945 Wing Commander I.A.H. Hay
     
  8. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Fred, I've had a quick look in the news archives. I've grabbed a few from 44-45. Haven't had a chance to read any of it, might be of no help whatsoever.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Joseph William Merchant died in Vernon, BC, 15 November, 1990. He was 77.

    Can find nothing on him in the RCAF.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
    Fred Wilson likes this.
  10. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    THAT was a nice bit of reading, amberdog45 - you will get far from any objection from me if you keep em coming!

    This is tagged Dambusters, so could potentially get lots of visitors as years go by. Always nice to have just the thing they were looking for.
    ___________________

    617 Squadron Notable Commanders.
    http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/324727
    ___________________

    Australia’s Dambusters: The Men and the Missions of 617 RAF Squadron
    http://militaryhistorynsw.com.au/past-speakers/australias-dambusters-the-men-and-the-missions-of-617-raf-squadron/

    The Dambusters; 617 Squadron RAF but Australia was there too.
    http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-air-support/ww2-allied/dambusters.htm
    ___________________

    Dambusters then and now: ... life in the legendary 617 squadron | Daily Mail UK.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324787/Dambusters-Wing-Commander-Guy-Gibson-rare-1943-interview-modern-day-successor-discuss-life-legendary-617-squadron.html
    ___________________

    ROYAL AIR FORCES REGISTER OF ASSOCIATIONS
    . .hosted by 207 Squadron Royal Air Force History
    http://www.associations.rafinfo.org.uk/squadron.htm
     
  11. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Cheers Fred - from your post you said: "Thanks to wiki: (No hits below. Gotta be RCAF.)"

    What made you exclude all of those possibilities? How will you know when you have the right name??


    So Joe Merchant & the mystery RAAF macadamia farmer served together before Joe (& others) went across to 617SQN. Do I have that right??

    Do we know when Joe joined 617, if so looking at the ORBs for likely losing units for the same time should reflect his movement. I wouldn't be surprised if the 617 ORB listed the units new crews came in from.

    Searching newspaper entries of the day shows a couple of officers noted for being extraordinarily young WGCDRs - Colin Milson of 455SQN (already listed above & dismissed as a candidate) & Ron Gillies of 10SQN RAAF (Sunderland aircraft)
     
  12. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01611.001/

    STUDIO PORTRAIT OF 413671 SQUADRON LEADER CHARLES CURNOW SCHERF DSO, DFC AND BAR, RAAF, WHO SERVED WITH NO. 418 SQUADRON, ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE.



    https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P04303.006/

    Informal portrait of 404360 Flight Lieutenant (Flt Lt) (later Wing Commander) Billy McFadden RAAF, wearing a full flying suit, including goggles and overboots, which were supplied by the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF). As a RAAF student pilot, McFadden was awarded his wings in May 1941 at No. 4 Service Flying Training School, Saskatoon, Canada, under the Empire Training Scheme (EATS). Whilst serving with No. 69 Squadron RAF, he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal (DFM) on 25 February 1943 for flying 14 operational sorties over the Mediterranean sea, including a successful torpedo attack on an enemy merchant ship in the face of heavy opposing fire from its escorting destroyer. Appointed to the rank of Wing Commander in July 1945, McFadden served at the RAAF Overseas Headquarters, London, before returning to Australia in September 1946.
     
  13. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Here's some more Fred. I am right in thinking this is a Canadian we are looking for, that eventually retired to Lismore? I just wonder if anything could be found via Troves website.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Correct. He is definitely not on the list of 617 Wing Commanders.

    Because I will know his name in a heartbeat when I see it.

    Suffering succotash. Good one amberdog45. I vaguely recall a British Accent.
     
  15. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    The record of J.19530 F/L Gordon R. PRICE 163530 and P/O later F/O Joseph (Joe) T.W.L. Merchant whilst in the Dambusters

    The following Officers were posted to the Squadron during December 1944:
    163530 F/O Merchant Category GD.B From 5 L.F.S 09.12.44
    * Crew Pilot: J.19530 F/L Gordon R. PRICE GD.P From 5 L.F.S 09.12.44

    Gordie Price of 617 passed away circa 1950. One of Joe Merchant's grandchildren is named after Gordon Price.
    I am in touch with the Tom Price, son of Gordon Price. He has a CD his dad had - that has the official roster of 617 wing.

    (The link to the 617 Operational Record Book (Orbs) is broken. Attached. I, of course have the pdf saved to disk, like 100 times.)

    617 SQUADRON DETAILS OF SORTIES OR FLIGHTS.

    12.1.45 Lancaster 1 PD238 H Target BERGEN (U-Boat Pen) 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Made 4 runs - on 1st because of smoke screen saw target too late for bombing and on subsequent runs target was obscured by smoke.
    Smoke screen from North of target drifted over target after first run. Saw smoke from about 4 bombs and seemed slight overshoot."

    3.2.45 Lancaster 1 DV380 Target POORTERSHAVEN 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Our bombs fell on the target - a direct hit. The first bomb fell about five hundred yards north.
    The second bomb fell in the water just west - northe/west of the target (behind the pier). Several other bombs seen to burst on and very near the target."

    6.2.45 Lancaster 1 DV3?? Target POORTERSHAVEN 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).

    8.2.45 Lancaster 1 DV380 Target IJMUIDEN 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Two near misses seen."

    14.2.45 Lancaster 1 DV380 Target IJMUIDEN 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). Merchant Duty: AB. So he was Air Bomber!!! Whoopee! (Edited 1st post.)

    22.2.45 Lancaster 1 FD238 H Target RAILWAY VIADUCT BIELEFELD 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Bombed on third run. Our bomb overshot slightly. quite a few near misses."

    24.2.45 Lancaster 1 ME562 K Target DORTMEND EMS CANAL 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). Merchant Duty: AB.

    24.2.45 Lancaster 1 ME562 K Target DORTMEND EMS CANAL 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). Merchant Duty: AB.

    23.3.45 Lancaster 1 PD113 Target BREMEN 1 x Special Store. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). P/O T.W.L. MERCHANT (Very small crew on this sortie. Weight reduction.)
    "Our bomb undershot and hit the bridge on the north side near north bank, saw ours and 2more make direct hits. Could not see whether bridge down or not"
    ===> Listed in ORBS as a Tallboy, but I think I recall him saying this was another of his Grand Slam drops. <===

    27.3.45 Lancaster 1 PD128 Target Farge 1 x Special Store.. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). (Very small crew on this sortie. Weight reduction.)
    "Saw one bomb explode just near aiming point."
    - This was his big day. Dropping a Grand Slam. Said the instant the bomb dropped, the entire crew was paté on the floor. The aircraft was INSTANTLY 100 yards (meters) higher.

    6.4.45 Lancaster 1 PD135 K Target IJMUIDEN 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).

    7.4.45 Lancaster 1 PD135 K Target SHIPPING IJMUIDEN 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Our bomb was a slight overshoot on the quay beyond the ship.
    We could not see any direct hit owing to smoke obscuring the ship after bombing commenced, but bombing was very concentrated."

    9.4.45 Lancaster 1 PD113 Target U-BOAT PENS HAMBURG 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Our bomb fell just east of the centre of the pens, a direct hit.
    The second bomb fell just to the N of ours also a direct hit as was the third bomb which fell just west of the centre.
    The fourth was an overshoot to the E. No further results were observed."

    13.4.45 Lancaster 1 LM695 Target PRINCE EUGEN & LUTZOW (SWINEMUNDE) 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). F/O T.W.L. MERCHANT

    15.4.45 Lancaster 1 PD113 Target LUTZOW (SWINEMUNDE) 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN). F/O T.W.L. MERCHANT
    "Bombing appeared to be rather scattered."

    16.4.45 Lancaster 1 PD113 Target LUTZOW (SWINEMUNDE) 1 x Tallboy. Pilot: F/L GR Price (CAN).
    "Bombing seemed to be rather scattered.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Bugger - I've been working on the assumption that the mystery macadamia farmer was ex-RAAF. He could have been any nationality / service and just moved to Australia post-war.



    Otherwise, I have asked a couple of people in the Lismore region for help but nothing so far.



     
  17. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Well chuffed you've found your man Fred. Here's a couple of articles in the press from March 45. Did Gordon pass away in Lismore then? Can't find anything at Trove. I also double checked the British papers to see if there was anything specific to Gordon, but sadly didn't find anything.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Close Close Closer but no cigar... yet. J.19530 F/L Gordon R. PRICE was his pilot.
    If I can find the Squadron(s) he was in prior to his Dambusters days, I will be able to quickly find the Wing Commander's name.
     
  19. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Any more info coming on this one Fred? I've more articles to add but haven't had time to edit them yet.
     
  20. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

    Merchant family descendants have not helped to date... but it has been a while since I contacted them.
    Trying again with the Price Family. Email still seems to be alive, but no response yet.

    I Faxed off a request limited info on Joe Merchant's service record. Last time I tried 20 years had not passed by... so was blocked from ANYTHING.
    Will try likewise for Gordon Price. I emailed his son Tom a few days ago. No response yet.
    - Mind you last time we chatted was YEARS ago. He was eager to find out all he could about his dad. Really motivated.

    So I would be happy to retitle this page "F/L Gordon R. Price J.19530" if this thread starts to get chock-a-block with information about him.

    Fingers crossed that this happens...

    Fred Wilson, Vernon BC Canada.
    aka FriedEd <===<-:
    (A Smiley that is about to Tie One On!)

    - Obviously not an expert here. I drop in to lovely resources like this as a student of WW2. Only a couple of years ago, I knew naught.

    Edit: Typo
    ____________________

    Never, ever, volunteer to volunteer.

    There are two secrets to success:
    1. Never tell anyone everything you know.
    2.
     
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