Heinz Guderian

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by Zoya, Mar 18, 2008.

  1. Zoya

    Zoya Partisan

    I hope I've put this in the right place?

    Coming to the end of Alan Clark's Barbarossa, I read this quote, regarding Guderian:
    As we watch this man, a superb technician, struggling with worn-out machinery and malicious individuals, it is impossible not to feel sympathy for him.

    Would you agree, from a military, if not an ideological point of view? I must admit, having read in detail his progress through the war, I have felt a certain amount of sympathy, and incredulation at Hitler's appointing of Himmler as commander of Army Group Vistula. On top of that, the diversion of the 6th Panzer Army to Budapest, rather than the Oder, must have left Guderian, as a professional soldier, banging his head in utter frustration.

    What are others' perceptions of Guderian? How complicit was he, do you think (if at all) in the atrocities of the war on the Eastern Front?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I do think his lack of a trial at Nuremberg is some testament to the man. They were pretty thorough in rooting out the Higher echelons and many fell for relatively 'minor' events that occurred under their command, but Guderian was considered essentially 'clean' by that tribunal.
     
  3. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Hi Zoya and great thread. Guderian was an extremely capable strategist and excellent tactician although he was stubborn and didnt take direction well. His biography is extremely self-serving and it paints a picture of a man who places himself firmly out of the line of fire when it comes to complicity. One of the funniest pieces of his biography must surely be when his wife is forced to leave their estate in the East and he describes the labourers having tears in their eyes as she left. He doesnt mention the fact that it might be that the russians were about to overrun them!!!!

    What is not in doubt was his grasp of the use of armor both in a tactical and strategic view and also his courage. Other accounts from Bunker veterans state that the only Wehrmacht Officer to consistently stand up to Hitler was Guderian.
    His campaign in France was a complete success and the initial success of Barbarossa is a noteworthy achievement also.

    I would hold a certain amount of sympathy for him in his role as Chief of the Panzer Forces and then as Commander of OKH especialy as he tried to make Hitler and OKW see that the East was in danger of collapse, hence the quote in my sig.

    Ultimately Guderian must be judged as a man who rose to high command under an evil regime and ultimately helped that regime to achieve as much as it did. He benefitted greatly from it and so was an accomplice of the regime. Most of the German High Command from a moral point of view was as bad as most of the Nazi party.
     
  4. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i am in complete disagreement with you.like rommel ,he did not grasp logistics.lee.
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    "Logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare." - H Guderian.
    I think he might have understood them rather better than the others that forced his hand in such matters.
    I wish we had film of some of the rows with Hitler. Suspect they'd be rather entertaining.
     
  6. Zoya

    Zoya Partisan

    From my (limited ~ I'm fairly new to this, so will stand corrected if necessary) understanding, he was thwarted at virtually every turn by Hitler, so we may never know what he might have been capable of given more leeway.

    Fwiw, Alan Clark's book contains the transcripts of some of the arguments with Hitler. Will have to check back to see if Guderian is included in those transcripts. I would recommmend the book.
     
  7. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    compare montys 1,200mile chase of rommell,he had rommel by the b###s.did guderian do the same.very interesting comparisonsindeed.lee.
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    compare montys 1,200mile chase of rommell,he had rommel by the b###s.did guderian do the same.very interesting comparisonsindeed.lee.
    Monty wasn't fighting the Red Army.
    A pretty daft comparison , Lee.
    Guderian gets my praise simply for being one of the only men to stand up to Hitler.
    I'd love to have seen one of those rows for real, with a translation of course.
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I suspect we could safely call Guderian's 1939-40 tour of Europe an even larger success couldn't we? Not exactly strung out in a desert country but not really half bad.
    The BEF, French, Belgians, Poles, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Luxembergers and large swathes of Russia etc. may just have felt their balls being grabbed somewhat? (while those strikes may not all have come directly under his immediate command they certainly all used his techniques of warfare).

    I'd love to have seen one of those rows for real, with a translation of course.

    Would translation really be required, I think we'd get the gist ;)
     
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    compare montys 1,200mile chase of rommell,he had rommel by the b###s.did guderian do the same.very interesting comparisonsindeed.lee.
    Comparing the North African Campaign to the Russian Front in 1941 is ridiculous Lee. Guderian was a completely different animal to either Rommel or Montgomery. He didnt have to prove himself Lee, he practically invented "Blitzkrieg" which was so successful in 1939 and 1940. If you want to compare Guderian with Montgomery why not talk about the campaign that both of them were involved in, say France 1940?
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I suspect we could safely call Guderian's 1939-40 tour of Europe an even larger success couldn't we? Not exactly strung out in a desert country but not really half bad.
    The BEF, French, Belgians, Poles, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Luxembergers and large swathes of Russia etc. may just have felt their balls being grabbed somewhat? (while those strikes may not all have come directly under his immediate command they certainly all used his techniques of warfare).

    Would translation really be required, I think we'd get the gist ;)
    Oh I think that would be unmissable!
     
  12. Zoya

    Zoya Partisan

    The tragedy for Guderian was, I think, that during the Vistula defensive, he knew how close the Russians were to the end of their resources. For once, they really had virtually run out of men, and were exhausted, and their equpment straining after the long offensive journey. He knew that if things had been dealt with differently, the advance on Berlin could have been halted, and the resulting outcome for Europe very different. But his hands were tied by Hitler, who at this point had one foot in the realms of lunacy, I think.
     
  13. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    the french attack did not cover as great an area as russia or alamein to enfidvile in tunisia.and in your own initial post gott,you assert yourself that guderian only had initial success during op barbarossa.monty had complete success in africa.lee
     
  14. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Lee, Monty never faced Guderian in Africa last time I checked. Monty only had initial success in 1940 as I recall, indeed he was sent packing from France whereas Guderian had complete success in France and given that it was the only campaign that they both were involved with it is the only one that is comparable.

    Its ok, Lee I get your point that Montgomery was a successful commander but this thread is not about Montgomery its about Guderian so can we park the "discussion" about guderian's record versus Montgomery's?

    Zoya, I'm not sure whether the Germans would have been able to stop the Russian Army by the time he took over as commander of OKH. They had just launched Operation Bagration which tore the German Army asunder. There was no going back after Bagration, it was more a case of "when" rather than "if". It is an interesting "what if " though.
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    It is an interesting "what if " though.

    Start a "What if.." here, Ger & I'll ban yer. ;)
     
  16. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    :D I'm not going to!!!
     
  17. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    if the germans were fully motorised i.e,the british army,during barborossa,then the logistics generals like guderian required,may have resulted in quite different results in russia.lee.
     
  18. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    The lack of motorisation was indeed a handicap for the Germans in Russia, however they still managed to conquer most of Europe with what was essentially a horse drawn army.
     
  19. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i thought zoyas origional 1st post was pointing rather more to the eastern front.lee.
     
  20. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    i thought zoyas origional 1st post was pointing rather more to the eastern front.lee.
    It was , Lee.
    So why mention Monty?
     

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