Emperor Hirohito

Discussion in 'General' started by Bob Guercio, Aug 17, 2009.

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  1. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    Hi Guys,

    I'm wondering what the story is nowadays regarding Hirohito's culpability for Japanese war crimes.

    Everything that I have read on the subject seems to exonerate him but I've heard that this is being debated nowadays.

    Thanks,

    Bob
     
  2. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    The first thing I need to ask is if he did something could we have actually done something to him? The god like figure in Japan tried for war crimes won't bode well with the Japanese population.

    I have to say, when looking at Japan during the war we have to look differently than how we view other nations because of the Bushido code. A nation that remained isolated for centuries thriving under a honor code won't be your average American society. Does this mean we should forget what the Japanese did? No.

    In Japan he is seen as a positive and good figure, even Tojo isn't looked at harshly. I remember reading about a case where a man was almost killed becuase he said the Emperor was repsonisble for war crimes. The wiki explains this subject well,

    Hirohito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  3. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Senior Member

    Hi Guys,

    I'm wondering what the story is nowadays regarding Hirohito's culpability for Japanese war crimes.

    Everything that I have read on the subject seems to exonerate him but I've heard that this is being debated nowadays.

    Thanks,

    Bob

    Here is part of a review on an older book, from 2000; Hirohito And The Making of Modern Japan; by Herbert P. Bix.

    Bix writes in his introduction that his book incorporates the work of many contemporary Japanese historians. His goal was to revise the traditional image most Westerners have of Hirohito. As Bix interprets the evidence, Hirohito was not a benign figurehead betrayed by his generals but an active player in murderous aggression.

    It is undeniable that the first two decades of his reign saw the violent expansion of the Japanese empire into Manchuria and China. Bix shows that Hirohito was consulted on and approved the Japanese military adventures that reached their peak with the attack on Pearl Harbor and the invasion of the Philippines.

    Bix makes a convincing case that Hirohito had to know about massacres of Chinese civilians yet said nothing. He had the authority to reduce the mistreatment of prisoners of war, but he did not. He was best positioned to urge his generals to seek peace at least a year before the war ended, and he delayed.

    See:

    'Hirohito And The Making of Modern Japan' by Herbert P. Bix

    Bix gets one thing wrong (or perhaps the reviewer) however, while it is popular to give the credit (blame?) for retention of the Emperor to MacArthur, the truth of the matter is that was the recommendation of the Asia scholars back in the States and put forward to Truman by the former Ambassador to Japan; Joseph Grew and Chiang kai-shek.

    MacArthur heard of this idea, and supported it most vocally and vehemently. He then took the "credit" for the policy, even though he really "hijacked" it from Grew.
     
  4. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    The first thing I need to ask is if he did something could we have actually done something to him? The god like figure in Japan tried for war crimes won't bode well with the Japanese population.

    No! We had to let him stay and the result is that today Japan is a peaceful and highly industrialized country. One can only wonder what would have been if we dumped him?

    It may have been necessary to whitewash his involvement because of this; however, now 60 years later we do not need to worry about that anymore and if he was culpable, let's put him in his proper place in history.

    I have to say, when looking at Japan during the war we have to look differently than how we view other nations because of the Bushido code. A nation that remained isolated for centuries thriving under a honor code won't be your average American society. Does this mean we should forget what the Japanese did? No.

    I just read something which disputes this.

    At the start of the Pacific war, the allies expected Japan to conduct an honorabe war; if a war can be conducted honorably! This was so because they had a decent reputation from the Russo-Japanese war of 1904/1905 and World War I.

    Is what I read correct?

    In Japan he is seen as a positive and good figure, even Tojo isn't looked at harshly. I remember reading about a case where a man was almost killed becuase he said the Emperor was repsonisble for war crimes. The wiki explains this subject well,

    Hirohito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think Japan is trying to rewrite history on the issue of war crimes and atrocities.
     
  5. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    No! We had to let him stay and the result is that today Japan is a peaceful and highly industrialized country. One can only wonder what would have been if we dumped him?

    It may have been necessary to whitewash his involvement because of this; however, now 60 years later we do not need to worry about that anymore and if he was culpable, let's put him in his proper place in history.



    I just read something which disputes this.

    At the start of the Pacific war, the allies expected Japan to conduct an honorabe war; if a war can be conducted honorably! This was so because they had a decent reputation from the Russo-Japanese war of 1904/1905 and World War I.

    Is what I read correct?



    I think Japan is trying to rewrite history on the issue of war crimes and atrocities.

    To my knowledge, Japan didn't have a huge hand in the first World War despite being listed as a Ally. Even than, as we saw during the war, the definition of "Honorable" was different in Japan.

    The Atomic Bombs might have something to do with this, perhaps they want to look like a "victim" and not a "aggressor"? If you have ever been to or seen a Atomic Bomb museum in Japan you will notice it is very depressing.
     
  6. ddt

    ddt Junior Member

    Thanks, Bob, for starting this thread.

    This discussion started in a thread over on JREF, with a rant by me (link), including:
    As to the Emperor: God or no God, methinks, he was a war criminal and mass murderer. He should have been tried. Unit 731, the Burma trail, the "comfort girls", all that happened in his name. 100,000 Dutchmen spent the war in his atrocious camps during the war, the news tonight mentioned in the item about the commemoration of VJ. (don't know numbers about other nations).

    Bob questioned the complicity of Hirohito in the war crimes perpetrated by the Japanese, as well as the wisdom in dethroning and trying/convicting him. Upon that, I pulled a couple of quotes from wiki.

    First, about Hirohito's complicity:
    In 1971, David Bergamini showed how primary sources, such as the "Sugiyama memo" and the diaries of Kido and Konoe, describe in detail the informal meetings Emperor Shōwa had with his chiefs of staff and ministers. Bergamini concluded that the Emperor was kept informed of all main military operations and that he frequently questioned his senior staff and asked for changes.
    and from the page on his brother Takahito:
    In 1994, a newspaper revealed that after his return to Tokyo, he wrote a stinging indictment of the conduct of the Imperial Japanese Army in China, where the Prince had witnessed Japanese atrocities against Chinese civilians. The Army General Staff suppressed the document, but one copy survived and surfaced in 1994.

    That seems to point toward the fact that Hirohito damned well knew what was going on in his name.

    As to dethroning Hirohito, his wiki page also says:
    Many members of the imperial family, such as Princes Chichibu, Takamatsu and Higashikuni, pressured the Emperor to abdicate so that one of the Princes could serve as regent until Crown Prince Akihito came of age.[40] On February 27, 1946, the emperor's youngest brother, Prince Mikasa (Takahito), even stood up in the privy council and indirectly urged the emperor to step down and accept responsibility for Japan's defeat. According to Minister of Welfare Ashida's diary, "Everyone seemed to ponder Mikasa's words. Never have I seen His Majesty's face so pale.

    That seems to indicate that at least the issue of dethroning was a realistic one. Now I understand that actually trying him is a bold step beyond that, and that Japanese society looked quite different to their leader than Western nations did/do, and that he has been a significant factor in keeping post-WW2 Japanese society together.

    I fully realize that wiki is not the best of sources. The Pacific war is not my forte, beyond the highlights I know little about it. That's why I came here, on Bob's suggestion, to pose these questions.

    Thanks in advance for your input!
     
  7. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Thanks, Bob, for starting this thread.

    This discussion started in a thread over on JREF, with a rant by me (link), including:


    Bob questioned the complicity of Hirohito in the war crimes perpetrated by the Japanese, as well as the wisdom in dethroning and trying/convicting him. Upon that, I pulled a couple of quotes from wiki.

    First, about Hirohito's complicity:

    and from the page on his brother Takahito:


    That seems to point toward the fact that Hirohito damned well knew what was going on in his name.

    As to dethroning Hirohito, his wiki page also says:


    That seems to indicate that at least the issue of dethroning was a realistic one. Now I understand that actually trying him is a bold step beyond that, and that Japanese society looked quite different to their leader than Western nations did/do, and that he has been a significant factor in keeping post-WW2 Japanese society together.

    I fully realize that wiki is not the best of sources. The Pacific war is not my forte, beyond the highlights I know little about it. That's why I came here, on Bob's suggestion, to pose these questions.

    Thanks in advance for your input!


    There is a big difference between being dethroned by those close to you and foreigners. There is a even bigger stepping down and admitting defeat and having someone make you step down, put you on trial for war crimes, and imprisoning or executing you.
     
    A-58 likes this.
  8. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    Here is part of a review on an older book, from 2000; Hirohito And The Making of Modern Japan; by Herbert P. Bix.



    Hi Brndirt1,

    Thanks for the recommendation but I know that I will not be able to manage this book. From what I understand, it is a very detailed tome requiring intense concentration. As far as hisorical readings are concerned, I do better with lighter works. Stephen Ambrose is my speed!:)

    If you could recommend anything else to read on this matter, I would appreciate it.

    Regards,
    Bob
     
  9. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    I think that it would have been best if Hirohito to abdicate his throne, as did the Kaiser after WW1. As ddt stated, Hirohito was well aware of what was being committed in his name, and should have been held accountable for it when it came time to "pay the band." He got off too easy in my opinion.
     
  10. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    I think that it would have been best if Hirohito to abdicate his throne, as did the Kaiser after WW1. As ddt stated, Hirohito was well aware of what was being committed in his name, and should have been held accountable for it when it came time to "pay the band." He got off too easy in my opinion.

    It seems that the right decision was made to keep him; consider the industrial and peaceful country that Japan is today!
     
  11. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    IIRC Japan's role in WWI was limited to naval patrolloing in the Fr Easr and pacific against German commerce raiders, also in the Indian Ocean, and IIRC they sent a couple of small ships to the Med.

    It's been years since I read it, but I once read of two IJA battalions embedded with the CEF in Flanders as a min-expeditionary force, and the Crown Prince coming to visit them there. Could be spurious though.
     
  12. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    IIRC Japan's role in WWI was limited to naval patrolloing in the Fr Easr and pacific against German commerce raiders, also in the Indian Ocean, and IIRC they sent a couple of small ships to the Med.

    It's been years since I read it, but I once read of two IJA battalions embedded with the CEF in Flanders as a min-expeditionary force, and the Crown Prince coming to visit them there. Could be spurious though.

    Japan did win the German colonies in the Pacific!

    Was this the result of battle or simply of dividing the "profits" at wars end.
     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Was this the result of battle or simply of dividing the "profits" at wars end.

    The latter of course.

    It seems that the right decision was made to keep him; consider the industrial and peaceful country that Japan is today!

    Peaceful? They were forced to be peaceful due to treaty obligations. But consider the denial and self-victimisation whitewash recent history has received there and tell me if this isn't preparing for the next one. If so bad luck to them, bombs today are bigger.
     
  14. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    Peaceful? They were forced to be peaceful due to treaty obligations. But consider the denial and self-victimisation whitewash recent history has received there and tell me if this isn't preparing for the next one. If so bad luck to them, bombs today are bigger.

    I agree with you that Japan is whitewashing history and this is wrong!

    However, I don't think that this is any evidence of Japan not wanting peace and preparing for the next one. Japanese people are not stupid and today they have everything that they want. What purpose would another war serve except to possibly exterminate the Yamato race?
     
  15. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    The latter of course.



    Peaceful? They were forced to be peaceful due to treaty obligations. But consider the denial and self-victimisation whitewash recent history has received there and tell me if this isn't preparing for the next one. If so bad luck to them, bombs today are bigger.
    They may also find the Chinese a harder nut to crack this time around :huh:

    Oh no, I've strayed into "What if" territory"!! Hits himself over head!
     
  16. Bob Guercio

    Bob Guercio Senior Member

    Oh no, I've strayed into "What if" territory"!! Hits himself over head!

    You cannot discuss history without straying into "what if" territory. The problem is that if you stay there too long, the discussion becomes no better than a fictional novel!
     
  17. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    It seems that the right decision was made to keep him; consider the industrial and peaceful country that Japan is today!


    Think instead of what sort of a peacful, pastoral and EMPTY country it would be today if the Emperor HADN'T accepted Unconditional Surrender and the implicit diminution of his own status....to in turn be allowed to keep his throne by the grace of Douglas MacArthur ;)

    If the Japanese had fought to the death as in Okinawa...the Home Islands would be a great nature reserve today...
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    "What if Thomas a Becket had murdered Henry II instead?"

    "What if Harold had stuck an arrow throw William the Bastard's eye?"

    "What if Lenin's train to Helsinki had derailed?"

    Worst of them all: "What if the Waffen SS had uniforms like the Brit Battledress?" :lol:
     
  19. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    "What if the Waffen SS had uniforms like the Brit Battledress?"


    Then all the Goths would be wearing scratchy serge instead of long black leather, of course!!! :lol::lol::lol:
     
    Gerard likes this.
  20. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Worst of them all: "What if the Waffen SS had uniforms like the Brit Battledress?" :lol:

    Good lord man, I need a "spray shield" over my key board. that made coffee come out of my nose.
     

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