BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

Discussion in '1940' started by Rich Payne, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I found this picture in Militaria Magazine Hors Serie No. 8. It shows BEF vehicles entering Belgium. I think the leading Bedford 'Joan' sports an AoS of 70 with bar below. The staff cars have a 12 and a 1 with no bars so from an unknown division (possible 4th?).

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41839&stc=1&d=1291913042Andrew

    Thanks for bringing me back to #152. I looked at it previously and there was something that didn't quite fit. I couldn't place the stucco-work houses anywhere on the BEF's 10th May line of advance into Belgium. It's just 'clicked' and had me grabbing de Lannoy...I'm sure that this is the same junction and probably the same Frenchman on points duty.

    [​IMG]

    It isn't 10th May, It's BEF GHQ withdrawing from Arras via Béthune on 23rd May.

    Unless preceded by an LAA unit, I'd half expect the Bedford to be ASC. The '70' is placed slightly to the right of the plate. Do you suppose that there could be a '1' hidden under the foliage, giving us once again '170' for a GHQ ASC unit ?
     
  2. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Rich

    Excellent link. Well done to make the connection. They are the same location I am sure. The 70 might be 170 but it's difficult. That is the best I can do with enlarging the picture I am afraid.

    Andrew
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Andrew

    I could see that you'd stretched that old copy as far as it would go. The '12' should be on red (HQ Snr. Inf Bde.) which suggests to me that there might be some red on the (1)70 also. It looks dark but it may be that the French photographers were using different film and / or filters from the British correspondents.

    If your photo came from a French publication then it must surely be another ECPA image. Do your future plans include a trip there ? I'd really like to see what they've got.

    Rich
     
  4. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    ... Unless preceded by an LAA unit, I'd half expect the Bedford to be ASC. The '70' is placed slightly to the right of the plate. Do you suppose that there could be a '1' hidden under the foliage, giving us once again '170' for a GHQ ASC unit ?

    Rich

    Excellent link. Well done to make the connection. They are the same location I am sure. The 70 might be 170 but it's difficult. That is the best I can do with enlarging the picture I am afraid.

    Andrew

    I'm sorry to say so chaps, but I think your theory's wrong... :huh:

    Here's a still from the "Journal de guerre n°36, semaine du 6 juin 1940" from the ECPAD archive:

    [​IMG]

    Clearly a "70"...

    And here's another still from the same video:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Well done Jan. However, it wasn't yet a theory !

    This is what I said : "Do you suppose that there could be a '1' hidden under the foliage, giving us once again '170' for a GHQ ASC unit ? "

    I asked a question and you have provided an answer...and all the world hates a smug blighter.:p

    '70' remains therefore a mystery although the name 'Rothesay' might indicate more than just a home on the Isle of Bute. My knowledge of the territorial units attached to GHQ is not sufficient here.

    '118' on a Vickers Light tank is a nice lead as well. Do you have a link to the film ?
     
  6. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    von Poop likes this.
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Thanks Jan, a cracking film. There is a lot more information there if we can look at decent stills. I think that I'd need a 48hour pass for ECPAD. That's a bit sticky after breaking the news that I'm taking the Norton to Normandy in June. When do we leave ?:)
     
  8. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Jan

    I had no idea about that site. The film clips and pictures are great and I have already enjoyed trawling through them finding new pictures and longer versions of clips I have seen in other videos. The tank with 118 is very interesting as I have seen MkVI Bs with an AoS of 117 elsewhere, albeit with no bar above or below. I wish I could join you at the ECPAD to find some stills but it's a bit too far right now!

    By the way, the Bedford picture in Militaria is not credited to ECPA (or anyone) but that could be just a slip up. I have had a quick look at Bethune on Google maps but haven't found the location yet. Is it definitely there?

    Andrew
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The ECPAD site has been recently updated. I had a good look at it a year or so back and the videos were not there. Jan and I have talked several times about visiting. I'm not sure if the 1940 stuff there has ever really been looked at from a British vehicles and unit perspective.

    The serial '117' has pretty well got to be GHQ as it's too high for Div or Corps. I'm pretty certain that the bar wasn't rigidly applied.

    I've been 'Googling' "Compagnie des mines de Béthune" and not really found anything. It's characteristic French 'Garden Village' style. Béthune was badly damaged in WW1 and there seem to be few 'between the wars' images. If that pit has now been closed and demolished then there's a good chance that the housing and possibly the streets have gone too.
     
  10. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Jan

    ...
    By the way, the Bedford picture in Militaria is not credited to ECPA (or anyone) but that could be just a slip up. I have had a quick look at Bethune on Google maps but haven't found the location yet. Is it definitely there?

    Andrew

    Andrew,

    I have just been looking at some old postcards, and have found this one:

    [​IMG]

    And this is what we see on GoogleEarth if we look for the Route de Béthune in Lens:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  11. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Jan

    It certainly looks like the place - a bit further down the road on Google you can even see vestiges of the 'half-timber' decoration on a similar house and it looks like there were a number of collieries with similar winding gear in Lens:

    Compagnie des mines de Lens - Wikipédia

    So, if Lennoy's date of 23 May for the picture posted by Rich is correct - which units might have been driving through that day? I see from the video that a bren carrier and a Bedford MWD, each with an AoS of 17 but no obvious Divisional sign were also driving through.

    Andrew
     
  12. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    The ECPAD site has been recently updated. I had a good look at it a year or so back and the videos were not there. Jan and I have talked several times about visiting. I'm not sure if the 1940 stuff there has ever really been looked at from a British vehicles and unit perspective.

    The serial '117' has pretty well got to be GHQ as it's too high for Div or Corps. I'm pretty certain that the bar wasn't rigidly applied.

    I've been 'Googling' "Compagnie des mines de Béthune" and not really found anything. It's characteristic French 'Garden Village' style. Béthune was badly damaged in WW1 and there seem to be few 'between the wars' images. If that pit has now been closed and demolished then there's a good chance that the housing and possibly the streets have gone too.

    Rich

    I agree with your suggestion that the bar may not have been rigidly applied. Perhaps when we have dealt with any last remaining 'bar belows' we can look at 28, 29 and other mysterious numbers with no bar but also no place in the corps or division lists. That Scammell Pioneer on the beach with a 29 has to be GHQ surely?

    Andrew
     
  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    So, if Lennoy's date of 23 May for the picture posted by Rich is correct - which units might have been driving through that day? I see from the video that a bren carrier and a Bedford MWD, each with an AoS of 17 but no obvious Divisional sign were also driving through. Andrew

    De Lannoy must have got his information from somewhere so I assume that something in the archive is captioned.

    If the date is indeed 23rd May, then GHQ itself was long gone from "Brassard", having moved out on 17th May, leaving behind the 'Arras Garrison'

    Ellis, in the official history states:

    "GHQ at Arras organised a garrison for the defence of the city under Lieut. Col. Copland-Griffiths, Welsh Guards. This garrison consisted at first of the 1st Welsh Guards (less one company which was on duty at Lord Gort's command post); troops from the Royal Artillery Base Depot manning eighteen field guns, searchlight and Royal Engineer units in the area; and personnel from the 2nd Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade Headquarters, who formed a squadron of armoured fighting vehicles drawn from an ordnance depot which were familiarly known as 'Cook's Light Tanks'....

    ...On the 18th, the troops in the Arras area, namely the Arras Garrison, the 23rd Division and one brigade (the 36th) of the 12th Division were...known as 'Petreforce'

    ...What remained of General Headquarters at Arras moved back to Hazebrouck on the following day - i.e. the 19th".

    I think it therefore quite likely that '118' is HQ 2nd Light Armd. Recce.

    If the '12' is on red and indicates HQ Senior Infantry Brigade then it is likely to be HQ 69th Infantry Brigade of 23rd Division as 36th Bde were not senior. Could there be a white rose anywhere on the vehicle ? On the other hand, maybe '12' on black only had a GHQ function ?
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The convoy is quite a mixture of units.

    There is also a Bedford MWD and a Bren Carrier carrying '17' (on green ?). If these are from the Arras garrison then perhaps either 6th QO R West Kents from 12th Div or 10th Durham LI if 23rd Div.

    The AoS serial is placed where I would normally expect to see the formation sign. I wonder if this leans towards 36th Brigade as they were no longer attached to 12th Div or simply that as per the light tanks, these vehicles were ordnance depot stock ?

    [​IMG]

    HMH 183 / T2630 is a Thornycroft Bren No.2 Mk1.

    [​IMG]

    There looks to be a plate mounted by the Morris-Commercial CS8's radiator but I can't read it and once again no visible formation sign..

    [​IMG]

    I wonder what 1st Battalion Welsh Guards were displaying. ?

    The Bedford carrying '70' looks like an OY 3-tonner. Quite possibly therefore linked to a GHQ ASC Troop-carrying company.
     
  16. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Rich / Jan

    I can't add to what has been said about these vehicles in Lens but here are my AoS 117s with and without bars. The sepia one looks really odd to me as the personnel look French.

    If 118 is 2nd Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade, could these be 1st Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade?

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42261&stc=1&d=1292869162

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42262&stc=1&d=1292869162

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42264&stc=1&d=1292869339


    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    4th / 7th Dragoon Guards lost some tanks at Ath. They had of course been Div. Cav for 2nd Division but were listed as GHQ Troops, 'Not Brigaded' in the 10th May Orbat.

    I've lifted this from the 'Cruelly Club' site :-

    "The Action at Ath, Belgium 1940

    On 19th May 1940 the Regiment was defending the River Dendre in an attempt to stem the German advance. 3rd Troop ‘C’ Squadron was in Lessines at the Pont de Pierre, Lessines. Last year we placed a plaque to commemorate this heroic stand, when three lost their lives. 3rd Troop ‘B’ Squadron were on the right towards Ath. The order to withdraw was given but this Troop took a wrong turning and ran into a strong force of the enemy and was never seen again. Four of this Troop were killed and the names are on the Memorial to the Missing at Dunkirk Cemetery, two were wounded and died later and are buried at Nevilles and Brussels and six became prisoners of war."

    I think there's a good chance that '117' could be 4/7 RDG.
     
  18. G5074

    G5074 Junior Member

    Don't know if I should be posting here but saw the markings on these vehicles and thought they should be posted in this topic. Cheers!
     

    Attached Files:

  19. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    I think there's a good chance that '117' could be 4/7 RDG.
    It's an interesting possibility, although the regiment had been covering the withdrawal of 2nd Infantry Division since at least 16th May and almost continuously in contact with the enemy - the promised rest period at Priem village on 17th failed to materialise. It is difficult to visualise when a general "re-badging" of the vehicles could have been carried out under such conditions, although it looks like a possibility as theirs and the Fife and Forfars were the only tanks in the area. The regiment was in position near Ath on the 18th and B Sqn was allocated the following area:

    [FONT=&quot]Our sector of the Dendre ran North from Ath to a bridge South of Rebaix, ‘C’ Squadron was on our right and our left was ‘in the air’.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Late that night we were ordered to hold the crossings until noon the next day. ‘A’ Squadron were changed over to our immediate left and ‘C’ Squadron to Lessines, so that we were now on the right of the Regiment. Our front was also extended so as to include the most northerly bridge at Ath. A battery of A/T guns (82nd) and a company of the Cheshire Regiment were placed under command.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Fife and Forfar yeomanry were on our right. At this time there were some very tired infantry of the 48th Division sleeping along the bank of the canal, but, although they would probably have given a good account of themselves if called upon, it was decided to ignore them in the defensive scheme especially as they were due to withdraw before us.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Squadron took up position with the 3rd Troop (Atkinson) on the right, the 6th Troop (Sergeant James) in the centre and the 5th Troop (T.S.M. Smith) on the left. The A/T Battery was given the task of covering the roads from Ath and Lessines with the remainder at Squadron H.Q. The Cheshires were given the task of covering the gaps between Troops and engaging the enemy at long range.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The 3rd Troop failed to get contact with the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry until the morning of the 19th and Atkinson was anxious about his right flank as at least one bridge on our right was undefended, so a loop was formed with a platoon of the Cheshires and a Troop of A/T guns to guard against surprise from this direction.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Between 4 and 5 am the Adjutant of the Fife and Forfars Yeomanry came to Squadron H.Q. to ask for assistance. He said that some of the bridges on his front were not blown, that his troops were very thin on the ground, that only some of his machine guns were fitted with locks and shoulder pieces and that anyhow they had not yet finished Troop Training. He was almost weeping, but was somewhat cheered by the laughter which greeted this remark and by the fact that he was invited to join our breakfast party.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]With the Colonel’s permission he was given one troop of A/T guns and one platoon of machine guns, not for entirely unselfish reasons on our part! He promised to return if the enemy got through on their front.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]There was little activity during the night except for some artillery and machine gun fire in the distance. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]At about 7 am the adjutant of the Fife and Forfars returned to tell us that the enemy, including tanks, had crossed the bridges on their front, but he did not know in which direction they had gone. Atkinson was told to keep a special watch on his right flank.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]At about this time written orders in anticipation of retirement were sent to all Troops.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]By about 8.45 the enemy were beginning to approach our position and the 3rd Troop shot up 4 or 5 horsemen on the opposite bank of the canal.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Very soon after the Squadron become engaged along the whole front.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Troop leaders had chosen their positions with considerable skill. Not only were they well camouflaged and dug in, but, owing to well co-ordinated cross fire the enemy were not being shot at by the weapons opposite or nearest to them, and consequently must have had difficulty in finding targets. It is difficult otherwise to understand why the Squadron should have had such a small number of casualties during the 3 1/2 hours of almost continuous artillery, machine gun and mortar fire.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Owing to the wireless batteries of all but the 3rd Troop being out of action through 9 days of constant use, the D.Rs., L/C. Turner and Tpr. Shipley had many exciting rides to the left of the position and tribute must be paid to the fearless manner in which they delivered their messages in spite of heavy fire, some of which hit their machines.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]T.S.M. Smith, who had been a machine gun instructor for many years got several good targets. On being asked by wireless whether his teaching was being proved sound in practice he replied that it was ‘all too easy, like shooting into a haystack’.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The enemy kept on approaching the opposite bank of the Canal in parties of 12 or 14 and attempted to inflate and launch rubber pontoons. As the battle proceeded and confidence increased, fire was withheld until the pontoons were launched and on no occasion did they succeed in getting across.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The plan of retirement sent to Troops earlier in the day was as follows: The 1st Troop (Renton) was ordered to take up a position near Ath, to cover the withdrawal along the Ath - Leuze main road. The 5th Troop (T.S.M. Smith) being on the extreme left was to start thinning out at 11.30am, the 6th Troop (Sergt. James) at 11.45 and the 3rd Troop (Atkinson) at noon. All the Troops were responsible for escorting the A/T guns and Cheshires in their areas.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]At 11.30 the wireless operator of the 3rd Troop (Tpr. Argyle) asked whether the Troop should retire at the time given without the Troop Leader (Atkinson) and his Corporal (Edmundson) who had crossed a footbridge onto an island in the Canal and were unable to get back owing to machine gun fire. They were ordered to give covering fire in co-operation with the 6th Troop in a further attempt to get them out.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]



    [/FONT]
    It was in the withdrawal from these positions that B Sqn 3 Troop took their wrong turning.
     
  20. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    G5074 -i think the lads here are deep into the 'BEF zone' :)but they are interesting pics of early CMP trucks. Only a few CMPs got to France in 1940 and no one has found a picture of one there yet , it would be the holy grail to members of the MLU forum -

    The Softskin Forum - MLU FORUM
     

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