Hi, I have another set of 6-ton and 3-ton WD Numbers this time for 16 Tk Bde Coy RASC, hopefully someone can translate into a make for me. They include: 3 ton 4884935 3 ton 4885053 6 ton 5217218 Thanks in advance, Tom
Hi, I have another set of 6-ton and 3-ton WD Numbers this time for 16 Tk Bde Coy RASC, hopefully someone can translate into a make for me. They include: 3 ton 4884935 3 ton 4885053 6 ton 5217218 Thanks in advance, Tom Hi Tom, Thanks for those. L4884935 and L4885053 are both Bedford 3 ton 4 x 2 GS from batch V5004 L4876340 - L4886339. 5217218 I think should be L5217218 a Mack 6 ton 4 x 2 from batch SM2429 5217013 - 5217517 but for some reason on the list I have it is down as X521.... Hope that helps a little. cheers Kevin
Kevin, Many thanks for the v quick answer. I will try to post all the numbers here when I get round to transcribing the war diary completely. Regards Tom
Kevin, Many thanks for the v quick answer. I will try to post all the numbers here when I get round to transcribing the war diary completely. Regards Tom Thanks Tom, I am sure they will be a great addition. cheers Kevin
Can anyone tell me why this war diary would start talking about 5-tonners? I don't think they had changed the 6-ton Macks, they just seem to have changed what they called them. This is not the only diary to do so. Cheers Tom
Hi Tom, Do you have any census numbers? It may give us a clue whether it is the Mack's they are talking about. cheers Kevin
Kevin, The only census numbers are from a loading list for June 44: they are definitely Mack 6 tonners though as recorded in War Diary on 24 Jun 44 after arrival in Normandy. I'm transcribing war diary at moment and will post census numbers for 6-ton Macks and Bedford 3-ton lorries as soon as I can. The changeover of one platoon to 6-ton Macks is recorded in the war diary as follows: 24 April 1944 1030 Received amendment to Mob Order 79/MOB/6430/138 dated 23 APR 44 from War Office (AG5) MOB. 27 April 1944 0730 OC and Capt J. Gilder RASC (O i/c Wksps) to ST 3 LONDON re changeover of 3 tonners for 6 tonners consequent on amendment to Mob Order. Regards Tom
The clue lies, I think in the 'X' prefix which Kevin referred to earlier. These would presumably be Mack EHT tractors ? To quote Vanderveen : "Truck, 5-ton, 4x2, Tractor. ....Coupled to Mack Model ST20 semi-trailer, British nomenclature ; 6-ton 4x2-2 semi-trailer GS" I'd have expected the tractor unit to have an 'H' serial and the trailer an 'X' ...or were they actually 5-ton Model EHs and not EHTs at all and should have had an 'L' prefix ? If they were EHTs, could it be that the British later down-graded in line with US classification and it became officially known as a 5-ton unit ? Someone on 'Olive Drab' has scanned the entry from Vanderveen :- http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_mack_h_early.php
Well, Much as it offends my sense of order, I have skipped forward through the war diary and found the following WD numbers for the 6-tonners! 5217218 5217223 5217224 5217226 5217232 5217235 5217244 5217249 5217250 5217252 5217265 5217266 5217270 5217271 5217272 5217273 5217274 5217276 5217278 5217281 5217312 5217318 5217320 5217322 5217448 All of these 25 belonged to 3 Pl, 16 Tk Bde Coy RASC and were noted as carrying Pet. In addition, and restoring my sense of order, "25" matches the number of 6 ton Macks reported as being present with the unit on 24 June 44 in France. For completeness, on 24 June 44, the war diary records the Coy as now being complete less residues as follows: "10 Offrs and 303 ORs (excl one deserter from Marshalling Area [naughty Dvr McIntyre!]), and vehs 1 x 4 str car, 3 x 2 str cars, 3 x 15 cwt GS, 3 x 15 cwt Water, 80 x 3 ton GS, 25 x 6 ton Macks, 1 x 3 ton Workshops Tech veh, 1 x 3 ton Wksps Stores veh, 1 x 3 ton Albion Breakdown and 38 motor cycles..." I'll post 3-ton numbers later - I believe that they were Bedford OY 3-ton 4 x 2s. Regards Tom
Rich, It could be that you are right, I think I've seen this 6 ton to 5 ton unexplained in a few other RASC war diaries. Perhaps now it is explained. Cheers, Tom
Thanks for those Tom. A listing I have states 5217013 - 5217517 Mack, lorry 6 ton, 4 x 2, GS. Contract SM2429 But oddly enough they have an X prefix, as mentioned earlier. cheers Kevin
Rich, I now don't think that they were tractor and trailer combos due to this letter in war diary 2nd Army ST (WO171/245) "From: Rear HQ 21 Army Gp SUBJECT:- Issue and transfers of 3-ton, 6-ton, 10-ton and Tipping Vehicles RASC Units 21 Army Group 21 A Gp/11304/8/ST 23 Apr 44 DDST, Second Army (Adv) DDST HQ L of C Owing to 6-ton and 10-ton Rigid G.S. vehicles being in short supply, a re-organisation of vehicle holdings in certain RASC units in 21 Army Group is necessary. It has therefore been decided that the following policy will be adopted immediately. 1. (a) All Heavy and Medium Regt Pls RASC will be equipped temporarily with 3-ton GS vehicles only. ( B) Army Transport Coys (four Pl) to be temporarily equipped with one Pl 6-ton rigid vehicles in lieu of 2 Pl 6-ton. (c) The necessary 2nd line coys RASC will be completed with rigid 6-ton vehicles." And I can't stop the smiley face appearing - grrr. All very perplexing! Regards Tom
Dear all, Pse find attached a copy of the WD Nos for 16 Tank Bde Coy RASC. Unfortunately they are not complete, as one of my photos is very poor (too much coffee!). I'll try to copy next time at Kew and complete the set. I think we have established that they are a mix of Bedford OY 3-ton 4 x 2 and Mack 6-ton "Rigid", but it would be interesting to see what the misc vehicles are (a mixture of MCs, 15 cwts, 3-tons, etc). Regards Tom
Dear all, An update on the 16 Coy RASC strength, as the last serial of this company didn't srrive in Normandy until 6 July 1944: 6 July 1944 FRESNAY LE CROTTEAU 0900 4th Serial reported to Coy location. Strength as follows:- 23 x 3 ton GS, 5 x 6 ton MACKS, 1 x 3 ton Wksps Stores, 2 x 15 cwt Water, 6 M/Cs, one Offr and 94 ORs. Strength of Coy now as follows: 103 x 3 ton GS, 30 x 6 ton MACKS, 3 x 15 cwt GS, 5 x 15 cwt Water, 1 x Albion Breakdown, 1 x Wksps Tech, 1 x Wksps Stores, 1 x 4 str Car. Regards Tom
Hi Tom, A few odd ones. T600021 - Albion 6 x 4 Breakdown All motorcyles appear to be Matchless 350 and 500cc's except C5854628 - James 125cc 3 tonners are as mostly Bedford OY's. Found one QL. L4914454 1 Humber 4 x 4 4 seater Utility M4708930 1 Morris 10 HP Light Utility M4780533 2 very odd ones. X4780907 Trailer, 5 ton 4 wheeled type T 4485201 Just listed as "various" Hope that helps or is of interest. Look forward to the missing pages. cheers Kevin
Kevin, Many thanks for the vehicle identities. A couple more points of interest from the War Diary: 19 July 1944 NORREY EN BESSIN 0300 Final Residue of Coy arrives comprised as follows:- One offr and 38 ORs. 6 x 2 str Cars, 6 x 15 cwt GS, 1 x 15 cwt Water Truck, 3 x 6 ton GS, 1 x 3 ton Slave Bty, 1 Scammel Breakdown and 2 M/Cs. 21 July 1944 NORREY EN BESSIN Operation EXPRESS commences – C Sqn E. Lothians under comd 7 RTR, 340 A/T bty under comd 7 RTR. Heavy rain all night and during the morning. Some vehs are bogged in places requiring the use of the Scammel B/Down lorry for recovery. 4x4 vehs would obviate this difficulty. Regards Tom