3 Panzer- Grenadier Division- 3 Infanterie Division( mot.)

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Stuart Avery, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    I need some help with these two tablets below if possible? I only have the war diaries of the I London Scottish for Jan-Mar 44! In the Regimental History Of The London Scottish in the Second World War 1939-45 by C.N. Barclay it says the following on page 130:

    While in this area the Division was honoured by a visit from His Majesty King George VI, who, in talking to Lt Col Law, promised to convey the Battalion's loyal greetings to their Honorary Colonel, Her Majesty the Queen. The Pipes and Drums played in Rome and attracted great attention. The Battalion was also represented at a (Memorial Service in the English Church of All Saints) in Rome, where a tablet was unveiled to the fallen of the 1st Division, whom the Battalion had fought at Anzio. I'm looking for the exact date has to when these truly unique tablets was unveiled. I was not present when a nice chap took the photos of them. Frank, I'm glad you did.

    I've looked at the Anglican Church Rome Website & I cant see the info I'm looking for! The one other diary that I've read for the month of June, 44 is the 1 DWR ( Duke of Wellington's Regiment). I could be missing something. I will need to read it again &the answer is probably within them.

    Regards,
    Stu.
    Anglican Church Rome. 1.jpg

    Anglican Church Rome. 2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  2. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    It was the end of July:

    1_London_Scottish_Jul_44_0002.jpg
     
  3. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    You have not said which date. I was beginning to think you was on the wrong month till I read the diaries of 1 DWR for July 44.:smug:
    I don't need anymore detail than what's below. Thanks for your time. Its only taken me few years to find this info. The Adjutant doing his job has he should.

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    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  4. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    I said end of July and then posted the page showing the dates? :unsure:
     
  5. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    I was not having a dig at you.;) You just made me read the following month war diaries.

    Stu.
     
  6. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Any one would think that Brigadier C. N. Barclay, C.B.E., D.S.O., would have read the diaries of the 1 DWR. Not for me to question a Brigadier. Or, is it? He also edited The History of The Duke Of Wellington's Regiment 1919-1952. Of which (he makes) no mention of the tablet/ tablets that I can see. He also edited the London Scottish In the Second World War-1939 TO 1945.

    The latter was complied under the direction & supervision of the Regimental History Committee. The former was produced under the direction of the Regimental Council, The Duke of Wellington's Regiment. Will have a read of the 1KSLI diaries for the month of July.

    It may give some more detail..

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  7. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Bingo: One happy chap. Its great when you start reading what you have on your book shelf, or laptop. Page 217:

    THE HISTORY OF THE CORPS OF THE KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY. Volume 3 - 1881-1968. More detail.


    1 KSLI. 217..jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  8. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    The Icing on the cake. WO 170-1416 1 King's Shropshire Light Infantry war diary Jan-Dec 1944. One can never have enough detail. Click on files if needed. Hats off to the Adjutant. I should have shown the last file first.


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    Regards,
    Stu.
     
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  9. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Hi to all that are following this ongoing thread. Page 290. Nice one Pieter. Its only taken me a while to read it.. Ok.. Post 98 only;)

    I was reading the translation that Pieter has kindly done. On his post 98 It says the following of which the name is important to me.

    The 1st British Division engaged the 1st Irish Guards west of the Anziate (Anzio-Albano Road) and the 1st Scottish Guards east ward. The first objective of the attack is the Osteriaccia crossroads north of Campolone station, from where the main push is to begin. The division finds out the plan through a order of the 1st British Division, which Lt. Semrau, leader of a combat group of the G.R.29, captures on January 29th. No other author in this campaign mentions this chaps name that I can see!

    The following is from Peter Verney's book page 80. ANZIO 1944: AN UNEXPECTED FURY. This gets on my nerves.

    In fact the plan of attack for 24 Guards Brigade was no secret, for an officer from another regiment had driven forward and repeated the mistake which the Grenadiers' 'O' Group had made. Which b..... officer to start with? The 'O' Group to me is the Officer by the way. Some say Order. Make your mind up. He had run into an ambush. He and his driver had been killed, and on him the Germans had found the orders for the night attack. How about the name of the driver? Also, which regiment? You would of thought that Peter Verney would have found out this important information? He left the army in 1970. The Germans had known precisely when and in which direction the attack was to come: The Irish Guards, in particular, had walked into the trap. The 'Sleepy' Germans--as the Irish Guards described later-- which they had passed through on their way forward to the railway halt, had lain doggo. waiting to attack the Guardsmen from the rear.

    Here is Peter Verney's Acknowledgements: I would particularly like to thank Mrs D. C. C. Dixon for graciously allowing me access to the papers of her late father, Major-General Sir Ronald Penney, KBE,CB,DSO, MC. Sir Ronald Penney may not of made a note of these chaps and the regiment. Which regiment was it, and what are the names? Even Wnyford Vaughan-Thomas does not give any detail. The following pages are from the 5 Grenadier War diary for the 28/29 January. Notice the page numbers that are to left the of the date. A few.
     
  10. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    The remaining pages will follow in time. Pressing the wrong key is not advisable when your posting a few files. I'm not even going to try & edit the above. More will follow regarding the Battalion History of the 1 KSLI. I've even posted the files in Thumbnail. Idiot.:mad: Can we not get rid of Thumbnail?

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  11. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    'O' Group to me is the Order-group in which the CO issues his orders for the upcoming operation.
     
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  12. Beringeria

    Beringeria Member

    Dear Tom,

    I am from Germany and make research in my grandfather’s history. He served the 3. Panzergrenadier Division (Inf. Reg. 8 (mot), III. Batalion, 11. Kompanie) and was fighting last at the Bernhard Line in Italy. There he died on November 13th 1943 on Monte Rotondo. In three weeks I will drive down to Cassino with my daughter to see where he was fighting and to visit his grave on the German War cemetery. In an older post from you I see you have the war diary of the 3. Panzer Grenadier Division. I have some stuff from the Bundesweher archive in Freiburg, but that looks new to me.

    3 Panzer- Grenadier Division- 3 Infanterie Division( mot.)

    Could you please support me with scans from the time around and prior the 13th November 1943? That would be very much appreciated.


    Best regards

    Robert
     
  13. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Robert,

    I hope these are of interest (all taken from T315 R173 - 3 Pz Gr Div file in US National Archives):

    00099 - 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 9 Nov 43.JPG 00115 - 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 13 Nov 43 (1).JPG 00116 - 3 Pz Gr Div War Diary - 13 Nov 43 (2).JPG 00248 - 3 Pz Gr Div - Order - 12 Nov 43 (1).JPG 00249 - 3 Pz Gr Div - Order - 12 Nov 43 (2).JPG 00886 - 3 Pz Gr Div - Map - 13 Nov 43.JPG 01112 - 3 Pz Gr Div - Intelligence Report - 13 Nov 43.JPG

    A few mentions of M. Rotondo and of Inf. Reg. 8 (mot), III. Battalion so hopefully useful.

    I can post more from the days leading up to your grandfather's death if that would be of interest.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  14. Beringeria

    Beringeria Member

    Dear Tom thanks a lot for your fast reply. I got most of the stuff from the Bundeswehr archives in Freiburg but the map is new to me. Could you please resend it in better quality? I would like to figure out where he has been on that day. Do you have more maps maybe given the hill numbers from the German point of view?

    He was a machine gunner in a bunker which was hit by a shell. This is what I know from the letter from his commander to my grandma.

    Btw he was an older soldier. He has been one of the first during operation Barbarossa stood a few kilometers in front of Moscow und also at Stalingrad. He escaped both with frozen feet. Stalingrad was already surrounded when he was flown out. He wrote more as 300 letters home so I know so much about him.

    Best
    Robert
     
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  15. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi Robert,

    There are a few more maps - I think the one I posted is a trace that would have overlaid a base map - I’ll see if I can improve the quality of the trace and see if I can work out which map it is meant to overlap. That may tell us what spot height M. Rotondo was noted as being on the German map.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  16. Beringeria

    Beringeria Member

    Well I have one overlay map showing the operation points of the companies. My grandfathers 11 company was in the area of the little hill where the horse shoe shape of the road to Casino is. In Dieckhoffs book it says it was on the east part from that position directly on Monte Rotondo but I believe the map is correct in this. M Rotondo was more or less in the hands of the allies in those days.
     
  17. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Myself and Stuart were in Caira cemetery yesterday. I’m hoping to go back there tomorrow.
     
  18. Beringeria

    Beringeria Member

    I will be there in June. Showing my daughter where his grand grand father died and what war means. I have made that trip 8 years ago with my two sons as well.

    Are you guys locals or where are you from?

    Regards
    Robert
     
  19. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    No, we’re not locals, we’re on a battlefield tour.
     
  20. Beringeria

    Beringeria Member

    Cool enjoy.

    I am from West Berlin. Right after the wall came down in 1989-1990 my brother and I went to the woods of Teupitz/Halbe where 100.000 German soldiers were surrounded by the Russian. The woods were full of stuff still laying around. Holes in the ground everywhere. Even ammunition could be found. After then they cleaned the woods. That was strange.
     
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