3 Panzer- Grenadier Division- 3 Infanterie Division( mot.)

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Stuart Avery, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Stu, I would have thought the book would be the best source of the OOB but the basic units did not change: Neue Seite 7
     
  2. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Gary,

    at the thick end of 430 pages it does not show any OOB of the 3. Infanterie-Division, 3. Infanterie- Division (mot.) or 3. Panzergrenadier-Division. If it does, then I'm missing it. Thanks for the link. I will check it out later to see if it has a translate to English.

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  3. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    These are the main divisional components.

    Panzer-Abteilung 103 - equivalent to a British Army tank regiment
    Panzergrenadier-Regiment 8 - equivalent to a British Army infantry brigade
    Panzergrenadier-Regiment 29 - equivalent to a British Army infantry brigade
    Artillerie-Regiment 3 (mot) - equivalent to the three British Army artillery regiments in a division
    Feldersatz-Bataillon 3 - doesn't have a direct British Army equivalent - it is a field replacement battalion for the division
    Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 103 - equivalent to a British Army reconnaissance regiment
    Panzerjäger-Abteilung 3 - equivalent to a British Army Anti-tank regiment
    Pionier-Bataillon 3 (mot) - equivalent to the three Royal Engineer companies in a British Army division
    Nachrichten-Abteilung 3 (mot) - equivalent to Divisional signals in a British Army division
    Infanterie-Divisions-Nachschubführer 3 - equivalent to the RASC units in a British Army division
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  4. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi Gary,

    As a division yes, but I was hoping that there would be details of Battle Group Moldenhauer which fought with HG Division in the hills north of Salerno and seems to have included some at least of the assault guns of Pz. Abt. 103.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  5. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Tom - I don't know ... I do not have it, just saw that it is for sale on Amazon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  6. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Gary,

    i will send you the pages that I've scanned if its OK with you? I'm going to show more of them when cropped.
     
  7. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Hi Tom,

    Is that KG Mollenhauer (after Major Mollenhauer, commander of II./ Gren. Regt. 29 which was the main component of the KG) - it is referenced in Stuart's pages above as being sent south to Salerno on 11th but only a mention of 2./ Pi. Btl. 3 being attached.

    However, I have seen another source saying KG Mollenhauer was formed of II./ Gren. Regt. 29, 2. and 3. Kompanie Pz. Abt. 103 and Pz. A.A. 3 when it was involved in disarming the Italians on the 9th/10th September. That isn't mentioned anywhere I can see in the extracts above and it's not clear ifd the reference to 2./ Pi. Btl. 3 being attached is in addition to the units already part of the KG or if these were detached again.

    Regards,
    Gary.
     
  8. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    I'm sure I have this book somewhere - I will try and dig it out.
     
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  9. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Gary - the Norbert Zsamveber's book about the Panzer Abteilung 103 - which is based on the unit's KTB - confirms that two of the Stug Kp.'s (no. 1. and 2.) were also attached to K.Gr. Mollenhauer, leaving the Panzer Abteilung 103 with only the 3. Stug-Kompanie and some supply units.

    Pz abt 103 quote.jpg

    You can get a glimpse of the book, only a couple of pages, over here: Combat History of the Panzer-Abteilung 103 | PeKo Publishing
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  10. hucks216

    hucks216 Member

    You can purchase PDF's of OOB's here which includes 3.PGD. Each one also includes details all commanders and award winners and they have the Gliederungen. Examples below are for 3.Pz.Division. What they don't tend to mention is Kampfgruppen (but some might) due to the fluid nature of their forming and disbanding.

    Wehrmachtdivisionen.de
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Just a minor detail shown on page 23 of the combat-history-of-the-panzer-abteilung-103. 12 September reached the town of Aprilia. The units CP was established in a manor ( 2km north of Aprilia!) He's read Dieckhoff Gerhard's book. What carnage they would have been involved in five months later. See file below which is highlighted in red.

    combat-history-of-the-panzer-abteilung-103_23.jpg Its nice to see that he's used a decent period map. See the file below which he's cropped. Situation Map 7-9 February 1944.
    rsz_12aprilia.jpg Below are two aerial photos that was taken on 2 Jan 44. I don't recall seeing them on the tin-ter-net- or in any other war diary of 1 British Infantry Division. 5 Grenadier Guards, 24 Guards Brigade. Typical Guardsmen for being meticulouso_O
    5 Grenadier Guards War Diary Jan-Dec 1944_Page_134 (3).jpg

    5 Grenadier Guards War Diary Jan-Dec 1944_Page_136.jpg
    Stu.
     
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  12. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    May suggest you contact the author or the publishers They might beplanning an English addition.
    Stefan.
     
  13. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Hi Stefan, thanks for your suggestion. Its not likely that i will be able to contact the authors or the publishers. I can't figure out the year when the book that I'm showing went to print.. It may be in the mid 1960's, or it could be in the 1950's? Also see my post 8! That book is in the shop to be scanned (that is the Italian Campaign chapters !) I will be be picking up the scanned pages tomorrow.

    Just putting the pages out for others who may find them of use? Authors etc.

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  14. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Gerhard Dieckhoff: 3. Infanterie Division / 3. Infanterie Division (mot.) / 3. Panzergrenadier-Division. Göttingen, Erich Börries, 1960
     
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  15. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.


    Have you found it yet?:D It may be needed in time to come. It's nice to see that its in English text.

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  16. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    I would like to bring this to the attention of forum members... stolpi, is adding to his post 35 has he translates it.

    Has he has informed me (that It roughly takes about one hour per page) to translate.

    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  17. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Right, Dieckhoff's study is a classic .. and most likely will never be published in English.

    Got this overview of the unit history from another book "Die gepanzerten und motorisierten deutschen Grossverbände" by Rolf Stoves:

    Dieck 1.jpg Diekc 2.jpg Dieck 3.jpg

    See also : Neue Seite 7
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  18. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    It will be in parts thanks to yourself & others who will chip-in. stolpi, you are adding more pages that need translating. I'm thinking they are relevant? They are or you would not have posted the scans! You & Gary will understand them! Others may not?

    Sorry if I'm missing the importance of the pages you have posted above. Any chance either of you could translate the pages in short?

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
  19. hucks216

    hucks216 Member

  20. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, it is one of the few divisional ones that you can't find free downloads for.

    On another note, I didn't actually have this book - Combat History of the Panzer-Abteilung 103 | PeKo Publishing. I think I'd considered in the past but was slightly put off by some of the reviews on Amazon. Don't be - I just bought it and thought it was excellent.
     
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