Does anyone have an ORBAT, BEF, 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by James K, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. James K

    James K Active Member

    for an Infantry Battalion (Line, Motorised and in the LoC Divisions), Pioneer Infantry Battalion and an AMPC Company in the 1940 period BEF. I'm also trying to establish which Field Regt's RA had 18 pounders and which had 25 pounders and if any had 4.5" Howitzers.

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Are you looking for the organisation of those units, in which case it would be War Establishment rather than Orbat?

    If so I've put together everything I could find for the British Infantry Battalion on my site, click on the link in the signature line and just follow the links to get to it. The Motor Battalion I haven't written up yet, if you're content with an outline organisation that's easy enough, likewise for the Infantry Pioneers. I don't have anything for the AMPC myself.

    The losses posted by the RA in France in 1940 included 632 25/18-prs, 216 18-prs and 96 4.5-in howitzers, covering 38 Field Regiments and two RHA Regiments (RHA Regts had 16 pieces each). I'm not sure if there's a list detailing which Divisions had which mix of guns and howitzers, but if there is someone here should know it.

    Gary
     
  3. James K

    James K Active Member


    Thanks. I'll read it with interest
     
  4. Kiwi REd One

    Kiwi REd One Junior Member

    James

    Have you seen Leo Neihorster's site? he has some fairly detailed informtion based on the War Establishment tables:

    Infantry Battalion organisations (look under the Divisional stuctures for the Line & Motorised battalions): British Organizations, May 1940

    RA Field Regiment Equipment:
    Infantry Divisional Artillery, in France, May 1940: Divisional Artillery, Infantry Division, May 1940
    Motor Infantry Divisional Artillery, in France, May 1940: Divisional Artillery, Motor Infantry Division, May 1940

    Hope that helps.

    Cheers
     
  5. James K

    James K Active Member

    Many thanks, great info.
     
  6. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    You might try and get your hands on The British Army 1939-45: British Expeditionary Force Organization and Order of Battle: 10 May 1940 - Volumes 1, 2 by Alan Philson. The Military Press: Milton Keynes, 2005. These two volumes have everything you need including the specific equipment for every artillery unit as well as WEs, TOEs and orders of battle.

    I worked with Alan on the earlier volumes of my series, The British Armies in World War Two: An Organisational History.
     
  7. James K

    James K Active Member

    I have vol 5 from the library (Hampshire Aldershot Military Collection), sadly they don't have the other volumes. The odd thing is the MOD library service only have volume 5 as well! Who is the publisher of your book and what year was it published, I will take a look for it?
     
  8. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    My series was a 14 volume series available from Nafziger at Home - Nafziger Collection. I will say that it is probably not what you are looking for based on your initial question. My series is more general and broader in its approach. You would be best off searching for the Alan Philson volumes. I found Volume 2 here:

    THE BRITISH ARMY 1939-1945 BRITISH EXPEDITIONARY FORCE ORGANISATION AND ORDER OF BATTLE 10TH MAY 1940: VOLUME 2 by Philson, Alan: The Military Press 9780854209361 2006. - Koster's Collectible Books
     
  9. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

  10. James K

    James K Active Member


    Military Press website is up and running but the telephone number listed is wrong and they don't reply to email requests. Its possible that they've ceased trading.
     
  11. James K

    James K Active Member

    The company selling that book on Abe charge £57 for the book and a further £52 for postage and that's sheer lunacy
     
  12. James K

    James K Active Member

    Even the British Library only have vols 4/5 and 6 of the Alan Philson books not 1/2 and 3 which seem to hold most of the useful information
     
  13. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    In partial answer to your query, I have scanned the sections from Philson's Volume 1 and 2 related to Field Regiment equipment.
    GHQ.jpg 1stDiv.jpg 2ndDiv.jpg 3rdDiv.jpg 4thDiv.jpg 5thDiv.jpg
     
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  14. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

  15. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

  16. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    It may well be that they don't have a copy but don't want to go to the trouble of de listing it and the price and postage is to deter anyone from ordering it.
     
  17. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Sadly the publisher, Military Press, changed hands a few years ago, as the original owners (who were wonderful to work with) were retiring. The new owners did not, as far as I can tell, make contact with anyone who had written for them, and the firm does indeed appear to have ceased trading. As a result there seems to be no chance of any of their titles being printed again, so any that you can find on the web are likely to be priced at a premium.

    Back on the original topic, in "The development of artillery tactics and equipment" (War Office 1950) a realignment of Field Artillery within Infantry Divisions is detailed for January 1940. The 2nd Line Territorial Divisions look to have arrived in France with the mixed Field Regiment of 16x 18-prs and 8x 4.5-in how, while the five regular Divisons had the 18/25-pr pieces. To even out capability, the history notes that "every division should, as far as possible, have two 18/25-pr regiments and one mixed 18-pr and 4.5-in how regiment".

    Gary
     
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  18. James K

    James K Active Member

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