Sword - Queen White OR Queen Red

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ianto, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    My first post, so be gentle. My father was in the 1st South Lancs, I think Co A or C as he was in first landings at Sword Queen.
    What isn't clear to me is whether they landed at Queen White or Red. I have seen conflicting opinions having read many posts in the forum already. Some say that the red rose of Lancashire meant that the South Lancs were allocated queen red, but others say this is not the case. I have even seen the war diaries posted here that specify it was queen white.
    Can anyone help solve the puzzle please?
    I've visited the beaches before, but will be going again in a few weeks time and would like to try and go to as exact a place as possible.
    Many thanks.
     
  2. Welcome to the forum Ianto!

    There is no debate whatsoever, opinions do not matter because all primary sources concord: 1 S LAN R was planned to land on QUEEN WHITE Beach.

    Which does not necessarily mean that some elements did not actualy land on QUEEN RED :smug:.

    Michel
     
  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  4. Indeed Owen!

    The hand written note does say so, but the writer is either mistaken or speaks for his own unit/sub-unit only, probably Bn HQ or maybe one of the other Coys in the second wave. One possible interpretation of this note is that the writer, in order to fill the "Place" column in the WD form, which had been left blank by the typist, used the only indication of a location he could find in the typed text ("strongpoint COD") and added the corresponding Beach in the "Place" coln.

    0745 Second wave (Bn HQ, HQ Coy, B & D Coys) touched down, met by small arms fire, mortar and 88 mm. Landing made almost on strongpoint COD

    Let's remember that most of the senior officers in the Bn had either been killed or wounded during the first few days, so the writer of the note might not have taken part himself in the event.

    In any case, the note can only relate to the actual landing beach. As for the planned landing beach, I do not have the 1 S LAN R Op Order for OVERLORD, but all the Landing Tables and other planning docs are unequivocal, as is the Op Order for the other assaulting battalion on QUEEN. See Sheet 2 of the 2 E YORKS OO1 here: War Diaries of the East Yorkshire and South Lancashire for June, 1944, clearly stating QUEEN RED as their alloted Beach.

    Michel
     
  5. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    I’ve often wondered whether much of the pencil annotations found in documents at Kew were added by official historians as they trawled through their sources. I’ve often seen red brackets around extracts which I assume were then typed out by Miss Jones in the typing pool and you often see map references amended or clarified. Could this have been a similar case?
     
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  6. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Two observations.

    There was a myth that since Lancashire has the red rose as a symbol the beach where the S. Lancs landed was Queen Red and since Yorkshire has the white rose the E. Yorks landed on Queen White. All the D Day beaches were divided into red/white/green by the navy. Any coincidence is just that, a chance happening.

    Also the two beaches were not separate and distinct but shared a common boundary at strongpoint Cod. It is possible that a LCA or two crossed the boundary but the vast majority of the Lancs landed on White Beach.

    Mike
     
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  7. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    Presumably the war diaries would have been initially written by hand at some quiet period during a day and potentially not typed up for a considerable time... if a typist and typewriter weren't available? I guess bad handwriting might also lead to transcription inaccuracies.
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  9. I concur with Mike. There might have been a few stray craft landing East of the WHITE-RED boundary (which was specified as MR 086807), but the sentence in the War Diary "Landing made almost on strongpoint COD" attests that the landing was not on COD itself, and therefore was still on QUEEN WHITE, because QUEEN RED started at the Western end of COD, or even just inside COD depending on how the strongpoint's limits are defined (MR 085808 to 091806 as per the wavetop photos booklet, see below).
    Unless of course the sentence was meant to say just outside COD on its Eastern side, but that is quite improbable as it would mean a navigational error of over half a Beach's width:

    QUEEN RED-WHITE limit 086807.JPG

    Booklet D - Page D - COD.JPG

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  10. Arty

    Arty Member

    Ianto,

    The South Lancs were to land on Queen White Beach - an unequivocal fact, confused by 74 years of hearsay, confusion and b'll'cks!

    Having said that, as mentioned above, not everyone landed exactly where planned. Perhaps share your Dad's name with us (and any other relevant info), and we just might be able to identify a company, and hence a more specific location for you to visit.

    Meanwhile, a small pic from WO 205/108….

    South Lancs = Queen White....jpg


    And a small snippet from a veteran - Bill Wellings, A Coy South Lancs "...At 0725hrs our assault craft dumped us on the landing beach Sword Queen White..."


    Regards
    Arty
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  11. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    Thanks Arty - interesting photo - I shall see if I can superimpose it on good old google maps.

    Concerning my Dad, he was a volunteer from South Wales who ended up with the 1st Battalion South Lancs in the Orkneys. I talked a fair bit with him about the war before he died so I know he was in the first wave and so I believe either A or C company, but don't know which. He was 19 (just) in June 44.
    I still have his stripes and patches etc and his 'dog tags' so I know his number was 14416499 - a number that stayed with him and he could shout out without thinking with any hint of encouragement.
    He was demobbed as a sergeant, I think in 1947 or 48, after a period in Egypt and Palestine.

    If you folks who know your way around records and archives etc an dig up any more I'd be very grateful.
     
  12. Arty

    Arty Member

    Ianto,

    With due respect to all the vets, the term “in the first wave” is a fairly common expression, which can mean anything from being the very first on the beach, to, landed at any time on 06June etc etc. Technically the South Lancs were part of the first wave of infantry to land on Queen beach, however the craft carrying the assault engineers (5 ARRE) and Sherman DD’s (13th/18th Hussars) arrived just before the infantry.

    Yep your Dad’s serial number is handy, however did he not have a name? Again, if we can place him in a specific company we can deduce approximately where he landed – to an accuracy of a few hundred metres (Queen White was about 800 metres wide). Many of the buildings on Queen White still exist – you could potentially stand in front of the very same buildings he landed in front of that day (less the smoke and bullets).

    Regards
    Arty
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  13. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    Ah yes, I do understand that the engineers and DDs did go first - no offence intended to those folks.
    Forgot to include my father's name - duh. He sported the glorious Welsh name of Rheinallt, often shortened by non-Welsh to Ray, and know to many army colleagues as 'Ianto', which was much easier to pronounce. He had no middle name - always told me that his parents couldn't afford one.
     
  14. Ianto,

    So, you father's full name was "Rheinallt Ianto" (with an initial 'i', not 'L'), Service Number 14416499? Or is it "Ianto Rheinallt"? Or is "Ianto" a nickname?

    Please kindly try to be crystal clear. For you it must seem obvious, but for someone like me who is quite unfamiliar with Welsh names & customs it is like yet another foreign language.

    In addition to his full name, any other name he might have mentioned, especially of his officers, would be useful in tracking down his specific sub-unit.

    Michel
     
  15. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    So, full name was Rheinallt Evans. No middle name, Ianto being a nickname. Service number as you state.
    In case it is also useful, his date of birth is 9 May 1925.
    Thanks.
     
  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    1939 Register
    Name: Rheinallt Evans
    Gender: Male
    Marital Status: Single
    Birth Date: 9 May 1925
    Residence Year: 1939
    Address: Min yr Allt Velindre
    Residence Place: Llwchwr, Glamorganshire, Wales
    Occupation: At School
    Schedule Number: 51
    Sub Schedule Number: 3
    Enumeration District: XJMP
    Registration district: 595-2
    Inferred Father: Isaac Evans
    Inferred Mother: Mary G Evans
    Household Members:
    Name
    Isaac Evans
    Mary G Evans
    Rheinallt Evans
    John E Evans
    Sarah E Evans

    There are some photos on the family tree that includes him, is it your tree?
    TD
     
  17. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    Which family tree do you mean Tricky? I don't see anything linked?
     
  18. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    This one

    Rheinallt Evans
    Birth: 1925 - Glamorgan, Wales
    Death: Oct 2006 - Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales
    F: Isaac Evans
    M: Mary Gertrude Hopkins

    Created by an Alun Evans

    An example of an image from the tree [hope you can read Welsh]
    bc10cc0f-e54a-4383-b1a0-53b7bf2b29b4.jpg

    TD
     
  19. Ianto,

    Now that we have your father's identity finally confirmed, and unless we find a nominal roll per Company or Platoon of the 1 South Lancs on D Day, we would need you to give us any detail your father may have shared with you regarding his landing, in addition to his being with the first wave(s).
    Anything at all, however insignificant it may seem: names, what kind of craft he was in, whether there were vehicles, bikes, stretchers, mortars, radios, officers etc. on board...
    What did he do on landing, any comrades from his craft wounded or killed?
    Was he with a vehicle, or did he embark on a ship for the crossing then got in a landing craft for the landing proper?

    Michel
     
  20. Ianto

    Ianto Member

    I wasn't sure which tree you were referring to, but now I recognise that it IS one that I have been working on. I'd actually forgotten that newspaper clipping. It is a poem that he sent home from Germany in April 1945 to his parents, and his father sent it to the newspaper.
    So, yes, I can confirm that the info is my father.
     

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