Hi all, There's a very brief entry in the 24th Lancers war diary: on "18/5/1944 - Assault party moved to camp C13 Hursley" And this matches with my granddad's account / written recollection of where he went just prior to D-day. Is anyone generally aware of much information or study about what went on at this site just prior to D-day? I'd be interested to see if there are any well known sources of information about what went on at "C13 Hursley" around this date already out there? I expect there was somewhat of a veil of secrecy about the place (most certainly at the time!) and I'm wondering if it has been lifted much over the last 70 or so years? Or whether it's all now been buried / lost in the mists of time. As an interesting point, wasn't anyone aware about the superstitions re. the number 13? I would have thought sending people to a "Camp 13" just prior to the "off" was a tad insensitive to say the least. There are still plenty of streets for example that simply omit to have a house number 13, as it is thought that it would be an unnecessary encumbrance to its sale/resale value as a result of fewer people actually wanting to live there. On the other hand I guess some people might think for them the number "13" is actually lucky, or even not care in the least. It's an odd one, but just a thought. I guess in a flight of planes for example would there be a reticence to fly/be flown in the flight #13? All the best, Rm.
Some Links Prior threads on ww2talk: Greetings from Hursley Park Marshalling Camps at Hursley in Hampshire And another thread on the 24th L's LSTs : 24th Lancers - LST Query And a thread about Gold Beach referencing the 24th L (as 24 Lancers): GOLD BEACH. External links About Camps 12 & 13 Hursley (in Hampshire): http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/d-dayon...ay-marshalling-area-camps-c12-and-c13-hursley Brief comments on C14-C17 - Book - Secret Romsey - By Ian Dickerson: Secret Romsey Some other D-day related sites in Hampshire: http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/d-dayonyourdoorstep/discover/Hampshire Some threads of an old discussion on rootschat about Camp Hursley: Army Camp Hursley info wanted (Hampshire & Isle of Wight) Page 1 RootsChat.Com And re. the 50th Infantry Divisions order of Battle on D-Day: D-Day : Normandy 1944 - GOLD BEACH : British Troops There's also a landing table here: D-Day : Normandy 1944 - GOLD BEACH : British Troops Wiki page on Hursley House: Hursley House - Wikipedia Picture of Hursley Park, Hursley, 5th June 1930 - epw032311 ENGLAND (1930). Hursley Park, Hursley, 1930 | Britain From Above Google "IWM Hursley Park": IWM Hursley Park - Google Search The D-Day staging areas (or "marshalling areas") were sometimes known as "sausage camps" because they were indicated on some maps by sausage-shaped blobs : The Sausage Camps: The D-Day Assembly Areas Hursley Park History (@hursley_park) | Twitter
Some Events at C13 Hursley Friday - 12d5m1944 : SRY - Lt. A. Head carried out a Reccé on behalf of the Bde at Hursley Park. Thursday - 18d5m1944 - Assault party of the 24th Lancers moved to camp C13 Hursley Wednesday - 31d5m1944 - Marshaling of the 24th Lancers Assault party vehicles takes place. Thursday 1d6m1944 - The 24th Lancers are on Southampton water on LSTs. (To add in post edit)
Some threads/links on the significance/lack of significance of the number 13 in war On page 78 of "None Had Lances - The Story of the 24th Lancers" it mentions that one of the 24th Lancers LSTs was "L.S.T. 139 which someone noted added up to thirteen". None Had Lances has a bit of detail between pages 61-63 on the 24th L's time at Hursley Park, including that "The first group, to land on D-Day, were tank crews, Ack-Ack, Recce and Intercom Troops with tanks, scout cars and motorcycles and some A Echelon support lorries" - "a total of 470 men". Moved to Hursley Park near Winchester. Leaving Milford on 17th and 18th May 1944.
Again, from my gd's post war remembrances / account: "We started the build up months before we moved close to Southampton, New Milton was our town, no civilians were there, so work of sealing etc. went on in the streets. We had one dummy run into Southampton then in May we moved into Camp 13 south of Newbury[1]. There we were told that once in this camp there was no out. No leave, no pubs, there was twelve feet of wire and outside were Yanks about every ten yards, with guns. The quarters were up on a hill and the tanks in the trees down below. Everything in that camp was for comfort. More Americans were working inside the camp. I remember one lot were putting up a small building, an officer and twelve men. We saw them at it each time we marched to and from the tank park. I wondered what they were building until one day as we were passing the officer said to no one in particular “We sure am building this piss-hole on a sound foundation”. There were highly secret huts on this camp. Inside the walls were lined with maps and the latest aerial photographs of the sector we were to invade “Jig Beach” was ours. On a table was a layout in sand and papier-mâché of the very place and we were pumped so full of information and warnings that one wondered how it could all be contained, but it was. After this briefing no one even went near the wire. Then the final effort. You will convoy to the docks. On the way there will be stops and halts, these can’t be avoided. You must speak to no one, even if your parents are about don’t speak to them. M.P.’s will see you and they’ll be locked up until after the invasion. They were right… …about that. One man crossed the road strode by the tank ahead of me and said something (the tank crew couldn’t hear him anyway, they all wore headsets) a jeep came along, bundles him in and he was gone. Loading at the docks was easy. We could load tanks in our sleep. I think the craft was L.C.T 285 but I could be wrong*. These tank landing craft are flat bottomed; the crew were American as also was the boat. We pulled away from the dock but we were too busy below to see anything until the anchor dropped and there we were, alone between the Isle of Wight and the mainland. We were there a week and watched the ships build up behind us until I swear we could have walked back to the docks without wetting our feet. About one in five of the ships had a barrage balloon to keep the dive bombers away. The food on board was good, the bread was really something. The coffee too was excellent. The ship’s Captain would keep us informed about lots of things and we were all a… … little startled the first time he spoke on the tannoy “Now hear this” he did say there was no need to hold the tanks and trucks with the securing chains. Eventually as everyone now knows we set off. We rounded the Isle of Wight and so far as we could see ships were moving into the channel from every direction. It must have been awfully lonely after we had gone. Everyone on board were (sic) interested for a while. The parts of the Mulbury Harbour interested us. I’m sure some of the parts had men aboard, in fact I saw one piece with two men, they wore very warm clothing and needed them. Another piece broke loose and our boat picked up the tow. Then the sea got up. Then the Captain came on “Now hear this” the tanks had to be chained. Chaining tanks when a ship is still is one thing, chaining on a rough sea is something else. Starting with all the crews picking up the chain put it around the track and wind it up. That ship rolled, it yawed, it pitched and it wasn’t many minutes before sea sickness took away my helpers. Eventually they were safe, but sleep was not for me, I could sleep other nights, tonight things were happening and I for one didn’t want to miss anything. So I wandered around having a look at the sea, couldn’t see very far, could hear ships, there was a rhythm and drone in the sea and sky. Eventually I smelled coffee and went along to see the cook, he never refused. With the first dawn streaks we knew the lid would be off, so all eyes were watching and soon we knew we were close, the tide turned bringing with it all manner of stuff floating by, one lot of sailors hats came by which didn’t do anything to cheer us, and yet they wouldn’t be wearing them and there were too many in a bunch. Then we saw our beach, there was no mistaking that tall house. We were reserve regiment so there was no rush to get us off. Battleships… … came up, turned around and started to fire over us, a troopship gently eased in, they took a rope to the shore and the men from the ship dropped into the water and waded ashore and walked away in single file up over the hill. When it was our turn our ship turned and slowly backed towards the shore and dropped the ramp. This was the moment of truth alright, if the sealing had gone they’d quickly fill with water, if there was a hole between ship and shore water would go in through the top where the tank commander was perched. So all crews were aboard except the tank commanders and we were clustered around the ramp watching Eric Hanson*** drop in, when he leveled he had a foot to spare and there was one big scamper back to our tanks. We were nose to tail going off and were very happy to get moving again. We quickly dropped off the exhaust chute in the field already designated, blew off the gun covers with the small explosive fixed around it, these were electrically exploded by the driver. As I said we were reserve regiment so we weren’t pushed in yet. We hadn’t seen any enemy so we knew there wasn’t any panic about so pulling into a hedge I told the crew to get out and feel if French soil was different to English. I had a bottle of Whiskey and a glass and had just poured a good stiff one when from not far away a Spandau opened up, you never saw such a rush to get back inside no I didn’t spill the whiskey, I drank it. Before moving away I did manage to go to the big gun site, it didn’t seem as if it had been fired. The underground offices were well worth a visit. We then moved slowly inland. We were given a few places to check, a very big electrical station, there didn’t seem to be anybody about. There was some sniping from the odd German left behind but not much." [1] 18/5/44 Second Assault residue moved to camp C22 Toot Hill. Assault party moved to camp C13 Hursley. * I've looked into this number but from what I've seen this doesn't seem to quite fit. L.C.T 285 seems to have landed in the Canadian sector (if it was this one which I think is the closest one I could find) http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/180285.htm To quote: Participated in the Invasion of Normandy, 6 June 1944, at either Nan White or Nan Red Sectors of Juno Beach This LST... LST-285 http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/16/160285.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_LST-285 And for more info. on this type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Ship,_Tank Seems though more like it might fit the bill, but I don't see anything yet to describe who it carried ot what it did during the Normandy Invasion. *** Sgt.Hanson was the tank commander of the second tank in the 5th troop of "C" squadron 24th Lancers. 5th troop of "C" squadron 24th Lancers was this squadron's firefly troop and was led by Lieutenant Bertram Garai. There's an IWM audio recording (unfortunately not yet available online) at: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80015847 Though the content description is interesting enough!
Hi Rm, I just saw this thread and your comment Is anyone generally aware of much information or study about what went on at this site just prior to D-day? I'd be interested to see if there are any well known sources of information about what went on at "C13 Hursley" around this date already out there? I expect there was somewhat of a veil of secrecy about the place (most certainly at the time!) and I'm wondering if it has been lifted much over the last 70 or so years? Or whether it's all now been buried / lost in the mists of time. I'm the (volunteer) historian for Hursley Park and would be very interested in any material you turn up. I do have some bits and pieces about the C12 and C13 camps in the run up to D-Day and the following weeks, plus there are some details on post war (as both a Polish resettlement camp and as Bomb Disposal), however most information is fairly sparse. There is also very little left of the camps. A few bits of concrete and footings from C12 but I think most of C13 has been completely erased. A couple of interesting asides to the Hursley Camps relates to the fact that the camps were around Hursley Park itself which was the HQ for Vickers Armstrongs Supermarine, where the Spitfire was being designed under it's own strict security. It was also involved in a POW escape plan from the nearby Ganger Camp just after the end of the war. I am in the process of following up one lead on the Bomb Disposal but would be very interested in any material relating to the camps. Cheers Dave
Dave, I've added one or two links and some text to the relevant sections in the posts above. Including for example: Wiki page on Hursley House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hursley_House Google "IWM Hursley Park": https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=IWM+Hursley+Park&oq=IWM+Hursley+Park+&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5847j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 The D-Day staging areas (or "marshalling areas") were sometimes known as "sausage camps" because they were indicated on some maps by sausage-shaped blobs : http://www.skylighters.org/sausage/ And... "None Had Lances" has a bit of detail between pages 61-63 on the 24th L's time at Hursley Park, including that "The first group" of 24th L's "to land on D-Day, were tank crews, Ack-Ack, Recce and Intercom Troops with tanks, scout cars and motorcycles and some A Echelon support lorries" - "a total of 470 men". These moved to Hursley Park near Winchester, leaving Milford on 17th and 18th May 1944." There are a few short anecdotes re. Hursley in there including a bit about their briefings and preparations, packing and stowing the tanks with supplies sufficient to last four days, awaking one morning to find "the entrances sealed and military police everywhere" and also some of them opting to be "in the fashion" having a "Normandy haircut" - which "in later times would have been classed as a skinhead". "While loading proceeded, members of the British army in Normandy get their 'Normandy Haircut', the latest fashion in coiffure. Thirty percent of those on board had their locks completely shorn." : http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/3313217-circa-1944-while-loading-proceeded-members-of-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=RyDwbx%2FJZFZQUVJmeEmBcDZgkLVVPm9rJJlnVdQVmd3SYpSPtrP%2Fi4HiCaIXmbGd I think though this is more of style that my grandfather went for there : http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/06/brad-pitt-macklemore-haircut-fury-trailer With just the sides and back shaved, a style that these days seems to be called an "undercut". : https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=undercut+haircut&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixw7H6__zLAhXDuhQKHSmtCUYQ_AUIBygB&biw=1280&bih=685 There is a thread re. WW2 haircuts here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/32300-ww2-haircuts/
Thanks for the update. I'll have to see if i can get a copy of "None had Lances" by the look of things! I love the "Normandy haircut", would be nice to think of taking back William the Conqueror's style to Normandy! Also thanks for the link on Sausage Camps. I had in my head the explanation was because they processed soldiers like sausages, in one end and out the other. Cheers Dave
BTW Dave, There are a couple of IWM links to comments on Hursley Park I think... Listened to this one recently and it was fascinating. Tomalin, Roy Ernest William (IWM interview) - A British trooper who served with 24th Lancers in GB and Normandy, 1942-1944: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018709 i.e. "1943-1944: posting to unit at Chippenham; reaction to change from Coventanters to Sherman tanks; move to Bridlington; waterproofing of tanks; move to concentration area at Hursley Park, 5/1944. "
I haven't seen much "new" on "Hursley Park" - in ref. to D-Day: "Hursley Park" D-Day - Google Search Although this Telegraph story (from 2014) is new to me: Monty's D-Day party girl knew all the secrets of Normandy landings "The remarkable story of how a young woman was ordered to host a party on the eve of D–Day to help calm the nerves of military commanders has emerged after 70 years."
A few months ago there was a play at the Nuffield Southampton, about Hursley House, among other Spitfire related things, called The Shadow Factory. From the website it seems that it may still be running and is well worth seeing.. Roy
On Facebook : Dave Key With text & some pictures: "D-Day - Hursley Park and Bushfield Camp A week ago i mentioned, in an unrelated post, the D-Day Embarkation Camps that stretched from Winchester to Romsey ... The Camps were used by many regiments; British US & Canadian, but in the run-up to D-Day itself they were used by the 50th (Northumbrian) Division who spearheaded the landing on Gold Beach. The 50th (Northumbrian) Division included the 8th Armoured Division ... I presume it was some of their armour that was 'parked' along the Winchester By-pass Using the Trees as cover from enemy reconnaissance they made final preparations for the landings ... I did a little on the Hursley Camps the other weekend at Hursley Park ... but thought that a couple of pictures might be of interest ... One is a map that shows the Sub-Area used by the Division ... this is a detail from the whole Area C map and is courtesy of Portsmouth Council and the D-Day Museum) The others are screen shots from a film recording the preparations held by the IWM. The pictures are of soldiers of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division, 8th Armoured Division in Camp C-13 in Hursley Park. "
IWM - I think refs C13 & C14 - as at Romsey - which is a few minutes drive from Hursley... Romsey - Wikipedia Some IWM films are not currently online but do have descriptions. This 9mins film is currently online... and has some views around the C14 Romsey camp near the start... LANDINGS ON 'GOLD' BEACH, 6 AND 7 JUNE 1944 (PART 4) [Allocated Title] DESCRIPTION Object description 69th Brigade units prepare for embarkation, sail with Force 'G' to France and land on 'Gold' Beach at La Rivière. Full description I. Troops from 50th (Northumbrian) Division units leave C14 Camp at Romsey. Inside the camp, soldiers play games to alleviate the boredom. Full description II. US Army service troops take over a section of the camp. Full description III. A mobile canteen dispenses tea to British troops. 50th Division's transport queues up in Southampton. A military policeman examines two civilians' identity papers. Detachments from the 86th Field Regiment Royal Artillery, No 9 Beach Group, the 5th East Yorkshire Regiment and from 50th Division's service units board an LCT which steams past Southampton Docks to join other invasion craft in the Solent. A Sunderland flying boat flies overhead. Full description IV. Escorted by Hunt class destroyers, tank landing craft steam past the Isle of Wight. Men on board eat sandwiches, receive unit briefings and gaze at the mass of ships heading for France. Full description V. The LCT flotilla steams past Hunt and U class destroyers towards 'King Red' Beach, while Force 'G' shells 'Gold' Beach, and comes under fire. Troops, tanks, self-propelled guns, AVREs, carriers and bulldozers queue up at a beach exit. Drowned vehicles, equipment and underwater obstacles are washed up by the high tide. Physical description 35mm Nb. This one is not currently online... but the description is... C13 - Hursley camp... ASSAULT UNITS PREPARE FOR THE INVASION OF EUROPE (PART 1) [Allocated Title] DESCRIPTION Object description An artillery unit attached to 50th (Northumbrian) Division's 69th Brigade does some last minute maintenance near C13 Camp at Romsey before embarking onto invasion craft at Southampton. Full description Filming from a moving vehicle, the cameraman observes a platoon of soldiers on the march and men serving with the 86th (East Anglian and Hertfordshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment Royal Artillery at work checking waterproofing devices fitted onto the engines of their Sexton 25-pounder self-propelled guns, Sherman OP tanks and M5 halftracks. A line of overhanging trees affords protection from Luftwaffe aerial reconnaissance. Also seen is a Bren gun carrier from the 5th East Yorkshire Regiment fitted with waterproof skirting in order to prevent it 'drowning' in deep water. Physical description 35mm
LANDINGS ON 'GOLD' BEACH, 6 AND 7 JUNE 1944 (PART 2) [Allocated Title] IWM A70 33-2 DESCRIPTION Object description Scenes showing 50th Division units preparing for D-Day, the assault on 'Gold' Beach and troops coming ashore on D+1. Full description I. LST 406 disgorges detachments from a US Army artillery unit and the 22nd Armoured Brigade onto 'Jig Green' Beach at low tide while a US Navy tank landing craft disembarks British troops (1/7th Queens or Royal Engineers). Full description II. Tanks, recovery and engineering equipment and transport belonging to 69th Brigade's supporting assault units are assembled in C13 marshalling camp near Winchester. Full description III. Troops receive 24-hour ration packs. Full description IV. A rising tide compresses armour, self-propelled artillery, transport and wreckage along 'King Red' Beach. A man is lowered over the side of Sergeant Ginger's infantry landing craft. 56th Brigade troops wade ashore from US Navy landing craft. A sign warns of minefields behind 'King Red'. Full description V. A 6th Green Howards soldier gets his hair cut in camp. Full description VI. An LCT convoy sails for Normandy. Full description VII. The 6th Green Howards takes its first prisoners; these are escorted to the beach. Beach Group sappers probe a ditch behind 'King Red' for mines. A 6th Green Howards carrier has its waterproof skirting removed. The battalion advances inland with several armoured fighting vehicles including a 50th Division Wolverine and several Sextons. Physical description 35mm The 24th Lancers' tanks are at around 3mins 45seconds... Camp 13 - Hursley "A" & "RHQ" Squadron 24th Lancers... And at 4min 6seconds... more 24th Lancers... Edit... Incidentally this caption on there has (probably) to be 31/5/44 as 31/6/44 as a day did not exist. It looks like they might have written 1/6/44 first then realised that it was still May and actually the 31st May - and not "yet" 1st June... let alone 31st June impossibly... and oddly... somehow...
