Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by TTH, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Beginning researchers like me are often confused by the revolvers of the Webley & Scott company. It took me years to figure out that Webley made two series of revolvers, one in .455 for government contract and another (mainly in .38) for the civil and police markets. Both used marks as designations. The government .455 "marks" were of course standard in both world wars, but the .38 guns were also around in the hands of police and so on and in WWII the .38 Mark IV (latest in the civil and police series) was also used by the armed forces. The Mark IV .38 had been developed from the earlier Mark III .38, which I think was made from 1897 onwards and was very widely used throughout the Empire and Commonwealth. I am not a Webley expert, but the Mark III seems to have come in two barrel lengths, a 3 inch for civilian or detective pocket use and a 4 inch length for uniformed police. Two butt styles were available, a very large brown checked wood type and a shorter style. According to some of what I have read, the Mark III stayed in production until 1948, which sounds very strange to me considering that the improved Mark IV was apparently supposed to replace it. Here are three Mark IIIs, one with a 4 inch barrel and large butt, one with a large butt, a short barrel, and South African Police markings, and one with a short barrel, short butt, and Royal Ulster Constabulary serial numbers.
     

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  2. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I'd like to add a bit of info on that. The .38/44 was still a .38 Special case, loaded to higher pressure than factory .38 Special cartridges. It was stamped .38/44, as were the revolvers that they were meant to be used in. The case diameter was .357. Smith and Wesson lengthened the .38 Special case by 1/8 inch in 1935 to create the .357 magnum, which equaled and then exceeded the .38/44 loading. So it all depends on what the meaning of .38 is.
     
  3. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Yeah, I knew that, just didn't want to clutter up the post too much talking about the ammo.
     
  4. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    To paraphrase Prince Akeem, "When you think of clutter, think of me!"
     
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  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It's good to see this thread brought to life and I hope you will forgive me repeating one of my favourite stories, namely:

    The time was late 1946.

    My current position was that of Tech Corporal for A Squadron, 4th Queen’s Own Hussars.

    As such, I was responsible for all the ‘Technical’ stores in the Squadron which included, Tanks, Armoured Cars, Motor Vehicles of all description and the spares included thereof.

    I knew that I was shortly due to be released from the Army under the current Python scheme that enabled men who had served more than 3 years 9 months abroad to be sent home and released from the forces.

    Understandably, I was concerned that nothing should hinder my release and ‘nothing’ included any shortfalls in the equipment that I had previously signed for.

    For some time now I had been training a young Lance Corporal to take over my place and I’d given him the task of checking the quantities of all the spares held on our Store Truck against the inventory for the same holdings. One day he reported to me that we were one verey light pistol short of the six that we were supposed to be holding according to the manifest.

    The verey light pistols were held as part of a tank’s small arms store and were used, in emergencies, to either send a pre-arranged message or identify the tank’s position to other squadron members. I had even used one myself in front line action some months earlier. The short story is that I was one pistol short and I had to do something about it.

    Amongst my ‘unofficial’ spares was a German very light pistol, very much the same size as it’s British counterpart but unmistakeably different to the eye. Some hard and quick thinking was called for.

    I solved the problem by covering all the pistols in axle grease then wrapping them up with strips of oilskin so that only the registration number was visible. The German pistol soon had it’s own number erased and replaced by the ‘correct’ British number and the six pistols were left hanging up on adjacent hooks.

    Not long after this event we had an un-scheduled inspection by a top-brass Brigadier who inspected all of the Regimental stores, including my own stores truck. He clambered up the wooden stairs of the truck and with his aide-de-camp sniffed around the stores that were on display.

    His eyes caught the very light pistols and he demanded to know what these mystery parcels were.

    I explained that experience had taught me that the pistols were soon affected by corrosion and so I had covered them in heavy grease but left the numbers visible for quick inspection

    . "Bloody good idea Corporal !" he said and telling his sidekick to "make a note of that will you" he soon, to my great relief, clambered back down the stairs.

    Almost seventy years after the event I still wonder whatever happened when the pistols were eventually unwrapped and the cuckoo in the nest was revealed !

    I also wonder if the rest of the units in the Division ever had to wrap all their Verey light pistols in grease !!

    Ron
     
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  6. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I have mentioned .25 caliber automatic pistols before in this thread; apparently a few of them did indeed leak into British and Commonwealth service via various routes. Webley & Scott made two types of .25 pocket pistols, one with an external hammer and one with a concealed hammer. Here are examples of both models. The hammerless .25 has SA military markings, while the first external hammer type is marked as belonging to the SA Police. The second external hammer piece belonged to British agent Noor Inayat Khan.
     

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  7. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Just to reassure readers that this is not solely a small arms thread, here are some captured German anti-tank guns in British service. Thanks to Andreas' excellent Operation Crusader website, I already knew that the German Pak 38 50mm was recognized as a substitute type in 8th Army. According to the attached photograph evidence, the 75mm Pak 40 and 75mm Pak 97/38 (a Kraut adaptation of the French 75mm M1897 field gun) were also used by British gunners. The following images show: 1) Pak 38 50mm being fired by Polish troops 2) and 3) a Pak 40 75mm in service in Italy (gunners are supposed to be Kiwis) 4) Pak 97/38 in British hands in Tunisia
     

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  8. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Seems a logical thing to do and what better way to learn the capabilities/weaknesses of your enemies weapons than using them yourself.
     
  9. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    A resourceful piece of improvisation Ron. You must have had a wide grin on your face afterwards. Not being discovered was I'm sure your primary concern but being commended by a senior officer for you slight of hand was certainly the cherry on top.
     
  10. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    MORE .25 PISTOLS--COLT-BROWNINGS

    Here are two more .25s. The first is a Browning Model 1905 used by an RAF officer who worked with SOE. The second weapon is a Colt Model 1908 which was used by a member of Z Special Force. The sources are IWM and AWM respectively.
     

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  11. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    .455 OLD PATTERN AUSTRALIAN DETECTIVE MODEL

    Here is a real bastard for you.

    I mentioned earlier in this thread that some of the Spanish-made .455 Old Pattern revolvers discarded by the British Army after World War I were given to police forces in Ireland and Australia, where they served for decades. This example was made by Orbea Hermanos and modified by the New South Wales Police with a cut-back barrel and what looks like an altered front sight as a pocket weapon for plainclothes detectives. Talk about pocket artillery, this thing must have sounded like an exploding bomb and kicked like a male Big Red roo, but if I was a villain attacking a detective in a Sydney alley it would have given me pause to say the least. I wish I could find a larger version of the image to give details of the modification. NSW Police Old Pattern.jpg
     
  12. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    For something less sophisticated but no less effective. Canadian WW1 samples:

    club.jpg club1.jpg club3.jpg club4.jpg club5.jpg
     
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  13. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Just as a followup to much earlier discussion of captured Panthers, Cuckoo was actually captured on film!

    Forward to 2:36 to see the crew give a demonstration.

     
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  14. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    1 Cdn Para Bn 1945 M1 Garand and possible MP40.jpg 44 Cmdo or maybe 42 just after VJ Day.jpg FE Cmdo with Garand 1.jpg FE Cmdo with Garand 2.jpg rifles08 posed 1 Cdn Para 4-45.jpg Welsh Guardsman with Garand winter.jpg South Pacific Scouts.jpg

    The M1 Garand rifle has been mentioned earlier in this thread. It is known that some thousands of red-banded M1s were delivered to Britain early in the war, perhaps for the RAF, but these may not have been used in action and commentators doubted that any Garands were ever used in combat by British forces during the war. The answer is a definite yes. I have already referred to a well known photo of an Australian infantryman using an M1 in action at Buna, a weapon doubtless salvaged on that battlefield or borrowed from a member of the US 32nd Division. There were other such individual cases. Among the attached photographs is an image of a Guardsman in a foxhole in NWE armed with an M1. Whole units also used Garands. The South Pacific Scouts, an organization formed from personnel of the Fiji, Tonga, Solomon Islands, and British Samoa defence forces, served in action alongside the US Army, USMC, and NZEF in the South Pacific theater. This force used a fascinating mixture of US, British, and Australian small arms, including Owen guns, M1903 Springfield rifles, SMLEs, and M1 Garands. As already mentioned the Canadians sometimes used M1s; the Canadian contingent in the 1st SSF (Devil's Brigade) had them, and so did the Canadian units which participated in the invasion of Kiska. The 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion (6th Airborne Division) seems to have taken a fairly free approach to weaponry, employing Garands and MP40s to supplement its issue weapons. The Garand was also used by British commandos in both the Mediterranean and the Far East. No. 1 Commando and No. 6 Commando participated in TORCH alongside American forces and were issued with Garands for that campaign. No. 1 Commando retained the Garand when it went east and other commando units in both theaters may have used the weapon as well. See the attached photos.
     

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  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From The History of the Irish Guards in the Second World War, FitzGerald:

    1IG, Norway, Pg 9:
    • 2/Lieutenant D.M. Kennedy was beaming. "Where's my servant? Hackett! Hackett! Give back that Guardsman's greatcoat, webbing and big pack, and tell the Platoon I won't be in the rear rank after all. Pack my Colt and Mauser, and the Remington with the telescopic sights, and put the small pistol and the knuckle-duster somewhere handy."

    3IG, North-West Europe, Pg 525:
    • The Battalion, on the other hand, had received its latest and most valuable reinforcement at the height of the battle. Into the harassed Headquarters, which was noticeably shuddering as its house crumbled under direct hits, stalked Major John [D.M.] Kennedy. He was wearing a cap-comforter and a blue sailor's jersey with an American carbine slung over his shoulder. "I have come," he said. He looked as if he had come straight from the gullies of Anzio. He had left his draft in England to take its normal course, probably lasting three months, jumped into a friend's aeroplane at Northolt, and lorry-hopped through Belgium and Holland. "Never was a man more welcome," said Colonel Joe. "His battle record was second to none in the Regiment. He was one of those rare persons who really enjoyed war. It did us all good to see him."

    Casualty
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  16. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I wonder what the Remington with the scope was. I bet either an American made P14 or a red band M1917.
     
  17. AlanDavid

    AlanDavid Junior Member

    TTH

    Excellent set of photos!

    Do you have a place and date for the first photos with the 4 parachute guys?

    Combined Operations and the RAF were the main recipients of the 30,000 Garands that the UK acquired. This is not including the 38,000 odd supplied under Lend Lease.

    Regards

    AlanD
    Sydney
     
  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Years back I read somewhere (but to date have been unable to find the reference again) that at the start of the war an American presented the Guards with 'some sniper rifles'.
     
  19. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

     
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  20. hutt

    hutt Member

    Attached are pages from 6 AGRA diary for July and August 43 referring to use of captured Italian coastal artillery and a report on the guns themselves.
     

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