Dear RAF members, I am doing some research on POW's who were repatriated via Odessa in 1945. I have been able to extract some names and details from some of the files from TNA. from those names etc I have extracted, I have a couple of queries (at the moment, there may be more later) as below. 1. Service number 1217137, RAF, Sgt - No name provided can you help? Sorted by Mr Jinks & Peter - thanks 2. Service number 1001026, RAF W/O - No name provided can you help? - Sorted by Owen & snailer - thanks Thanking you all in advance for your help TD 30/11/2014 : Edited to update search
Wt Off with 1001026 service number called Herbert William Turton bottom left column of this page promoted to Pilot Off.. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36882/supplement/266
Thanks Owen, thats interesting, In my list I have: H W Turton, 188227, RAF, Pilot Officer - as above the W/O is noted as 1001026 - same man different service numbers?? Would they change service numbers on promotion - I wouldn't have thought so, but I have been wrong before TD
Hi, Yes they received a new number on commissioning The Gazette entry posted by Owen is for W/O Turton’s appointment to a Commission and shows both his service numbers. 1001026 Herbert William Turton (188227) Your other chap doesn’t seem to have been commissioned but his OR service number indicates he enlisted at Cardington between April 1940 and April 1941. Rgds Pete Edit: I had the enlistment details wrong
Hi Guys Just needed to bump this thread to see if anything can be found for No 1 in my post 1 above Thanking you all in advance TD
Sorry TD I didn't see this one first time around 1217137 Sgt (Air Gunner) Ronald T Pither, RAFVR More here;- http://www.liberatorew250.com.pl/wladze/dane-techniczne-b24l.html Kyle
As Kyle has mentioned Liberator EW250 on the link above........ Loss details of aircraft..... 17 October 1944 34 Squadron SAAF Liberator VI EW250 'L' Shot down by enemy night-fighter near Krakow, Poland whilst on the outbound leg of a supply dropping sortie to Polish partisans in the Radomsko area south west of Warsaw. One member of the crew, Sgt. R T. Pither survived. Crew. Lt. D. O Cullingworth SAAF + Lt. C S S. Franklin SAAF + Lt. K J. Mcleod SAAF + Lt. G. Ray-Howett SAAF + Sgt. J E. Speed + Sgt. R C. Bowden + Sgt. D P. Richmond + Sgt. R T. Pither. Survived Movement history of Liberator VI EW250 Ex 44-10253 Delivered Dorval 28 April 1944 To the Middle East arriving 10 May 1944 To 34 Squadron SAAF Failed to return from low-level supplies drop to Polish Home Army, Warsaw 17 October 1944 Struck Off Charge 20 October 1944
Thank you Peter - and others This is another odd one as with Turton, I already had: R T Pither sevice number 186093 P/O But I also had this unknown name and the service number 1217137 Sgt - which now turns out to be the same man (Pither) So they must have both been 'Gazetted' - would that have been to allow them into a different type of POW camp (officer class)?? TD
Tricky, a little re P/O. H W. Turton...... 11-12 November 1944 83 Squadron Lancaster III PB188 OL-A Op. Hamburg. (Target - Rhenania-Ossag oil refinery) Took off from Coningsby at 1638 hours (No further details of loss) Crew. F/L. D A. Jennings RAAF. pow F/S. S C. Burleigh DFM. pow F/O. P H. George. pow W/O. H W. Turton. pow P/O. G W. Hughes RAAF. pow P/O. B J F. Hayes DFM RAAF. pow P/O. A C. Mathews DFC + Source - RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol.5 - W R. Chorley
Thanks Peter I have them in a list of POW's who reached the port of Odessa on 13th March 1945. I am still unsure why they have appeared on the list using both of their service numbers ???? - which was why I initiated this thread. Thanks again all TD
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14084640 Reference: WO 208/3327/3101 Description: Flying Officer R T Pither (service number 186093). Service: RAF. Evaded capture in Poland and contacted Allied Forces. Possible information on this individual (including appendices) may be present in WO 208/5582-5583. Date: 1940-1945 Held by: The National Archives, Kew Legal status: Public Record Language: English ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both service numbers confirmed here;- https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36823/supplement/5561/data.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subsequent promotion notification;- https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37083/supplement/2568/data.pdf Kyle
Thanks Kyle I don't think I will search for every TNA file on my list , but I may try to obtain a copy of his to see how he reached Odessa. It has also created a small problem on my Excel sheet as to how to include secondary service numbers - anyone have any aspirins TD
The vast majority of the ex-POWs who made it to Odessa did so with the help of the Poles. Despite Yalta agreements to allow 30 MilMis to set up four collecting camps in Poland the Russians went out of their way to make things difficult ie cancellation of passes, refusal to supply transport and the laughable charge that Soviets in UK holding camps were being treated much worse than Allied ex-POWs. Couple very lengthy files from an Aussie perspective - I can confirm the same things happened to Canadian exPows - can be found at the NAA: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=766419&isAv=N Recovered Prisoners of War via Odessa [USSR][Includes nominal list and correspondence concerning travel arrangements for wives of POW's who married in Europe http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=4117614&isAv=N Australian prisoners of war Europe - repatriation via Odessa - prisoners of war recovered by Russians Regards, Dave
Hi Dave Thanks for that, unfortunately the links are 'timed out'. I have a list of the Aus & NZ guys at Odessa. The major problem I have is that I am still trying to find the listings for UK and European ex POW's who were repatriated via Odessa, after the best part of 2 years I still come up empty handed . It seems odd that records can be found easily for Aus, NZ, USA and Canadian troops but the UK :angry: The Russians were using liberated POW's as bargaining chips either for cash or for swapping with their own who were either being held as prisoners (i.e. on the German side) or those who had been fighting with the Allies. Their treatment on return to Russia (if they made it) was in the most part abysmal to say the least. TD
Hi, I am Herbert Turton's grandson, I do sporadic research into his career (he died in 1960 and so we know very little about his time as a POW (though we do have a telegram to his wife from ?Egypt I think, and my dad thinks he escaped from a camp but we aren't sure for certain). is the suggestion that he somehow made it Odessa? any help gratefully received
Hi Pete Turtons that are in WO 392 POW database Europe are: H Turton The Royal Fusiliers Konin Zaganski, Poland 3866070 86985 VIII-C 23 H W Turton Royal Air Force : Officers & Other Ranks 188227 Either of these your grandfather?? If its the second one then I can see on my worksheet he reached Odessa on 13th March 1945. There is a possibility that he departed Odessa 16th March aboard Duchess of Bedford but I would guess more likely on the 27th March on the Duchess of Richmond. One reason for this was that each POW at Odessa who was repartiated out of there needed a visa from the Russians which could only be obtained from Moscow, so the paperwork trail would take in mt estimation more than 3 days. Cairo and Naples were both used as first ports after Odessa, Cairo usually more for the antipodean repatriates, but not always TD
The RAF Herbert Turton 188227 is indeed my grandfather. The London Gazette item is interesting - we thought his promotion to Pilot Officer happened whilst as a prisoner, not as it says there on the 8th November. I've got a feeling he was transferred from one stalugluft to another but can't be sure (my dad keeps a box of stuff and I haven't looked at it in years). So I'm guessing the more likely tale is his camp was liberated and he went to Odessa, rather than the idea that he escaped?
Promotion was 8th Nov - which year?? It is notoriously difficult to find details re ex POW's being repatriated via Odessa I will look back through my notes to see how I came across his name, it would either be from searching the internet or sometimes people are mentioned in some of the related diaries/files from Odessa that I have TD
That would be great thanks. Just gave dad a quick phone call - he says he was unsure of how he got to wherever, but that his older brother tells a story of granddad and two others making a break for it in the midst of fighting nearby, hiding for two days before "surrendering" themselves to some Soviet troops thinking that they would help. On side note - Flt Lt Jennings, the pilot, was granddads best man at his wedding survived the war and lived out his life in Tazmania.