1st Lothians & Border Yeomanry

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by gerboise, Jan 28, 2009.

  1. Thane

    Thane Member

    Hi michel
    Great photos
    I'm still looking for this original copy of Thane of Cawdor. I know it must be around somewhere as my father has scanned it. I'm also sure you may be right with the turret number 12 as I remember my father mentioning it. when two of his freands were killed by freandy fire.and he survived it Due to the yanks being on a different radio frequency. The yanks were on high ground and had mistaken the shermans on the low lying open ground as Germans. My dads crew tried to bail out but where hit. He was knocked out and could only remember waking up with a bright light and ringing in his head. He managed to get out and with some others took cover behind a beat clamp in a field while someone run up the hill to tell the Yanks.The radio problem was Something to do with the wrong crystals in the radio sets he told me. I know one of the guys that got killed was Burt Weaks and the other was Albert not sure of his last name but dad said he was a lot older than the rest of them and had two kids back home. They buried them in that same area. as I know my dad got in touch with the war graves commission about ten years ago to see if they were ever recovered. I know that it bothered him in his later years.There is probably more info to this event.
    Hopefully will find it as I have a bit more time this week.
    Regards jim
     
  2. They must be Tpr Herbert Alfred WEEKS 1431066 (20 years old) and L cpl Albert Henry EATOUGH 7941524 (30, so indeed much older), both KIA 27 Feb 45. See:
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054714/WEEKS,%20HERBERT%20ALFRED
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054268/EATOUGH,%20ALBERT%20HENRY

    27 Feb 45 was a dark day for 1 Lothians, because at least five more of them were killed that same day:

    Sjt Alexander Ian McARTHUR 7930308, 'A' Sqn
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054446/McARTHUR,%20ALEXANDER%20IAN

    Tpr Colin Rowland SHEPHERD 14407466, 'A' Sqn
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054612/SHEPHERD,%20COLIN%20ROWLAND

    Tpr Alan SMITH 14332417
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054623/SMITH,%20ALAN

    Tpr John Maxwell WARDROPE 14505943, 'A' Sqn
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054703/WARDROPE,%20JOHN%20MAXWELL

    Cpl Percival Gill WIGGLESWORTH 7919755
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2054727/WIGGLESWORTH,%20PERCIVAL%20GILL

    I don't have the War Diary for this period (Feb 45) but perhaps Drew5233 could help us here.

    Michel
     
  3. Thane

    Thane Member

    Thanks for the info Michel
    I will show this to my mother later today. I can't beleive you have so much information. When I my mother visited my father in February he said to her I have no right to be here on this day. I have been very lucky. Only now do I realise what he meant. It was 27th Feb. 6.30 in the evening when this all happened back in 1945.
    Regards
    Jim
     
  4. You're welcome Jim! It's not that I have that much information on hand, just that over the years I've learned where to find it thanks to excellent advice from such places as this forum :) And being able to help veterans and their offspring in any small manner is a fantastic reward in itself, a very small contribution indeed towards repaying the immeasurable debt we all owe them.

    We're all looking forward to any new scans of photos or documents you might find.

    Michel
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'm affraid I only have the 1944 diary, I only copied it as a bartering tool to give away for free with an order for another one of the diaries
     
  6. Thane

    Thane Member

    Thanks Drew
    Maybe they will come to light some time. I still have a lot of photos and paperwork to copy and upload and this should keep us all pretty busy.
    Regards
    Jim
     
  7. Thane

    Thane Member

    Hi Guys
    These are a few more pictures I have of A Sqn.
    Regards Jim
     

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    Juha, Robblybob and AB64 like this.
  8. Lots of great photos again, thank you Jim!

    I suppose that the name of this photo "Thane of Cawdor" comes from some note written by your father on the photo print itself?
    If so this would most probably be THANE OF CAWDOR II, since it appears to be different from the first THANE OF CAWDOR or the other two SHQ tanks, witness the appliqué armor plate on the right side of the turret which the first THANE OF CAWDOR does not seem to have. The additional armour plates welded to the driver and co-driver's hoods, as well as the gun bracket on the hull front would denote an "improved" Sherman V.
    Thane of Cawdor II - 003.jpg Thane of Cawdor II - 004 closeup.jpg Thane of Cawdor.jpg

    These two photos probably also show the same tank THANE OF CAWDOR II (see the same spare track links types and arrangement on turret):
    Thane of Cawdor II prob - Ranges in Belgium.jpg Thane of Cawdor II prob - 009.jpg

    These two are shot at the same location and therefore probably show the same Humber Scout Car F196650:
    Humber Scout Car F196650 - 001.jpg Humber Scout Car F196650 - 012.jpg

    Finally, these are two photos of the same tank, possibly WOLF OF BADENOCH II (see post #60 above), the second one with another Humber Scout Car (not F196650 as this one has the 'A' Sqn 'delta' tac sign at a different location):
    Wolf of Bandenoch II maybe - 004.jpg Wolf of Bandenoch II maybe - Arnhem Flats.jpg

    Michel
     
  9. Yet another possible pair of photos of the same tank, but different from THANE OF CAWDOR II or WOLF OF BADENOCH II (therefore COCK O'THE NORTH II perhaps?), probably shot at the same time/location:
    010-003 comp.jpg

    Michel
     
  10. Thane

    Thane Member

    Hi Michel
    Yes I agree there are differences between these two tanks thane of Cawdor that is showing the T number at Xanten does seem a different type as I can see ie different track pads + no gun mount even the gun looks shorter but wider. I will check my fathers notes but it does seem they were all using this type of Sherman while in Xanten as the rest of the group in line do look the same. The later photos show another type perhaps a later variant. I can not see ant T number on these or turret numbers.I do have a letter that mentions that they changed the colour of the shermans during the winter of 1945. I will double check.
    Regards
    Jim
     
  11. Thane

    Thane Member

    Thane
    Just a few more bits and pieces.
     

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  12. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi James,

    Thank you for posting these. The letter to home is most moving. I have similar letters and documents of my late father. He was too young to fight in WWII but although a Gunner fought for a while as infantry in Malaya in the early '50's.

    Thanks again.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  13. Thane

    Thane Member

    Thanks Kevin
    I have just added these again. Scanned at a higher rate.
    it Seems that my father was driving Thane of Cawdor Sherman V type before he was in Xanten with the A.V.R.E. Petard Churchill.and not the other way round Not 100% sure as I am only going by the dates that I have on the photos and the information. as his mates and crew were killed in Jan 24th and Feb27th of this year 1945.and the pictures I have show them with the Sherman v type.
    But it does seem strange.
    Regards Jim
     

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  14. Jim,

    Do you mean that you think your father was in an AVRE at Xanten? I do not think so, because he was with 1 Lothians up to the end of the war, and as far as I know 1 Lothians remained a Flail regiment all along. The AVsRE we can see on the various photos are from an Assault Squadron RE, not from 1 Lothians.

    You father was in the first 'THANE OF CAWDOR' (a Sherman V as you said) at least until 27 Feb 45, then probably with 'THANE OF CAWDOR II' (the one with the added armour & track links, most likely also a Sherman V) from then on, including when he was at Xanten.

    You mention the date of 23 Jan 45, but "only" two 1 Lothians crewmembers are listed as KIA on this day: Tpr Frank Alfred Lawlor (see beginning of this thread) and Tpr Richard John Nicholls:
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2055319/LAWLOR,%20FRANK%20ALFRED
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2055365/NICHOLLS,%20RICHARD%20JOHN

    Tpr Lawlor was in 'C' Squadron, so was probably not part of your father's crew, unless either of them changed squadrons... But Tpr Nicholls might have been? We'd need to see the War Diary to learn more. Maybe you could order it from Drew :) ?

    Michel
     
  15. Thane

    Thane Member

    Thanks Michel
    In my photos there is a picture of two graves. these are some of my dads crew Johny McNaughton and Dusty Millar . not sure where they were killed but they had decided to go to the toilet whilst the tank was being shelled and only just climbed out when they were hit.
    Regards Jim
     
  16. The legend of your photo does say "killed at Heinsberg", and this place is where Tpr Lawlor and others were killed the day before later, so that might be it.

    Here are their CWGC records:
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2055339/McNAUGHTON,%20JOHN%20RICHARDSON
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2055349/MILLER,%20DOUGLAS

    From the details you give the tank probably was not destroyed on that day.

    Michel
     
  17. I've stitched together the two photos shot from the steeple of St Victor's Cathedral in Xanten:
    [​IMG]

    For comparison here's a later photo shot from the same place, showing more of the town to the right, the second version slightly cropped but larger:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Michel
     
  18. Thane

    Thane Member

    Thanks Michel
    Was there any trace of Johnny mcnaughton. As he was killed with dusty Millar.
    Do you think I should get a copy of my father service papers.
    I did notice on the pay service book I have copied mentions group C group and A group. But I'm at a loss as to what it means .

    Regards Jim
     
  19. Thane

    Thane Member

    Hi Michel
    Great job matching those photos up Thanks.
    l Just found this not to sure if it can explain much.
    Does seem strange that my father has a lot of photos of the A.V.R.E Churchill Tank. but maybe its just in the photo as these are all marked just Xanten May 7th 1945.
    all of the Thane of Cawdor photos are marked just that. Thane of Cawdor.
    I will try and get a copy of his service records next.
    Regards Jim
     

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  20. Thane,

    Thank you these new scans. Below is a short summary of some dates found on the various papers you posted:

    Enlisted 16 Jul 1942 at Farnborough
    Far East 30 Apr 45

    Record of Employment as an Army Tradesman
    Trade Group Class Remarks Date
    Gnr/Mech "C" III Mustered for Pay 8 Feb 43
    Dvr/Mech "C" II Mustered for Pay 10 Apr 43
    Veh/Mech "A" III Pt.I Orders 186/9 21 Dec 45

    War Department Driving Permit 1 May 1946 stamped 'A' Squadron 1st Lothians & Border Yeo
    Valid to 1 May 1947

    Soldier's release Book Class "A" 9 May 47 1 R.T.R.
    Certificate of Transfer to the Army Reserve 11 Jun 47

    So visibly your father was transferred to 1 RTR at some point between 1 May 1946 and 9 May 1947, where he finally worked as a fitter.

    However, he was apparently still with 'A' Sqn 1 Lothians as at 1 May 1946, so probably also was when at Xanten on 7 May 45. However, it's still possible that he was attached for some time to a Royal Engineer Assault Squadron? His Service Records will show any such transfer/attachment.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019

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