Scrap Metal

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Kyt, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    I found this article and wondered if anybody knows anything about it. I also read something similar a couple of years ago but can't find the reference. Anyway, was the scrap metal drive a necessity or propaganda?



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    "War Effort That Misfired
    The Evening Standard – 24-05-1984


    The following letter to London's Evening Standard was in response to an article on the impending replacement of magnificent railings in EnnismoreGardens, London. The original railings were among thousands of tons of decorative ironwork and railings removed from London's streets, supposedly for re-cycling into munitions and the war effort. It now seems certain that the collection of aluminium pots, pans, railings and other metals during the war was largely a propaganda exercise intended to give blitzed civilians a feeling of having contributed to the war effort and the opportunity to 'hit back' at Germany. Metals such as aluminium and copper were indeed scarce and were presumably re-cycled. Metals such as cast iron were of little value and were frequently – and secretly – dumped!
    By Christopher Long
    Letters to the Editor
    The Evening Standard

    I was interested in your item about the railings which are to be replaced in Ennismore Gardens. The tragedy is that so many of London's railings were pulled down in order to support Britain's war effort, bearing in mind that they never became the guns and tanks they were intended for.

    In fact I believe that many hundreds of tons of scrap iron and ornamental railings were sent to the bottom in the Thames Estuary because Britain was unable to process this ironwork into weapons of war.

    Christopher Long
    Earl's Court Square,
    Earl's Court, London SW5.


    This information came from dockers in Canning Town in 1978 who had worked during the war on 'lighters' that were towed down the Thames estuary to dump vast quantities of scrap metal and decorative ironwork. They claimed that so much was dumped at certain spots in the estuary that ships passing the area needed pilots to guide them because their compasses were so strongly affected by the quantity of iron on the sea-bed."
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I think I've mentioned this before (a long while back) but a friend of a friend who dives in the Solent (urgh.) says there are areas where tons of railings and the like are still there having been dumped in the 40's.
    Another brilliant Churchill wheeze. Getting the people feeling involved and part of the fight back being far more important than the useless metals they so willingly donated.
     
  3. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    I think I've mentioned this before (a long while back) but a friend of a friend who dives in the Solent (urgh.) says there are areas where tons of railings and the like are still there having been dumped in the 40's.
    Another brilliant Churchill wheeze. Getting the people feeling involved and part of the fight back being far more important than the useless metals they so willingly donated.

    Sorry VP, didn't see that posting. I think you're right about the ruse for public morale, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been more publicity about it (especially with the spate of "revisionist" books that have come out over the last 10 years).

    Around my way, the vast majority of the Georgian properties either have modern railings/walls or just the "stubs" left.
     
  4. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Same my way, very few railings survive. i have an official photo of a pile of pans and kettles at Home, i'll post it up tonight if I remember.

    The idea was to involve everyone, no matter how small a contribution, and if it helped a housewife to give up one of her cooking pans, then so be it. And yes, they were dumped in the solent, and also in the channel. i understand many of the aluminium pots and pans went that way as well as the aluminium was not a high enough grade for aircraft manufacture.
    One thing that has always got on my wick (High horse coming up) was all of the cannons. Cast bronze cannons that had been captured at Sebastopol and the like were aken away to be melted down for their bronze content. Congleton lost a very beautiful example that was captured at Sebastopol. it used to stand in the park in pride of place, but after much resistance the Council eventually had to give it up. do you know where it is, along with all of it's brethren taken from other towns and cities around the country? You guessed it, BOTTOM OF THE RUDDY CHANNEL! :Cartangry:
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Same my way, very few railings survive. i have an official photo of a pile of pans and kettles at Home, i'll post it up tonight if I remember.

    The idea was to involve everyone, no matter how small a contribution, and if it helped a housewife to give up one of her cooking pans, then so be it. And yes, they were dumped in the solent, and also in the channel. i understand many of the aluminium pots and pans went that way as well as the aluminium was not a high enough grade for aircraft manufacture.
    One thing that has always got on my wick (High horse coming up) was all of the cannons. Cast bronze cannons that had been captured at Sebastopol and the like were aken away to be melted down for their bronze content. Congleton lost a very beautiful example that was captured at Sebastopol. it used to stand in the park in pride of place, but after much resistance the Council eventually had to give it up. do you know where it is, along with all of it's brethren taken from other towns and cities around the country? You guessed it, BOTTOM OF THE RUDDY CHANNEL! :Cartangry:
    It's ok kitty, there really is no shortage of 18th/19th century cannons... Most of the bollards in Pompey are made out of 'em.
     
  6. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    It's ok kitty, there really is no shortage of 18th/19th century cannons... Most of the bollards in Pompey are made out of 'em.

    We havent got one. *Sulk*
     
  7. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    , BOTTOM OF THE RUDDY CHANNEL! :Cartangry:

    Reckon we should start a forum diving club?
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Some great underwater ww2 detritus here.
    Particularly the Shermans loaded for transport.
     
  9. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Here's the official photo I have of the metal collection (don't ask how I got them) View attachment 3194

    And I thought one of the all the road signs taken away would be nice as well. View attachment 3195

    Kyt, they know precisely where the cannons are. ;)
     

    Attached Files:

  10. David Layne

    David Layne Well-Known Member

  11. vailron

    vailron Senior Member

  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/020531.html
    I don't think we can really compare US scrap drives with UK ones can we? The recovery of materials for the US mentioned there would be achieved on industrial capacity that was not available to the UK.

    Is it possible that as aircraft production was such a speciality here then the materials in really short supply would be of a high or 'aerospace' quality that was near impossible to achieve by smelting old pots and railings?
     
  13. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    I don't think we can really compare US scrap drives with UK ones can we? The recovery of materials for the US mentioned there would be achieved on industrial capacity that was not available to the UK.

    Is it possible that as aircraft production was such a speciality here then the materials in really short supply would be of a high or 'aerospace' quality that was near impossible to achieve by smelting old pots and railings?

    I think the US had the smelting plants to deal with any scrap they deemed useable.

    But you make interesting point, VP. about which metals would actually have been useful. Aluminium would have been very sought after, but how common was it in everyday items in the 1930s? Ferrous metals - they must take a lot of processing to turn to steel, and there must be limits to the age of the metal that can be used.

    What we really need is to recruit a metallographer! ;)

    As an aside, did you know that some scientific satellites use metal from the ships of the German fleet scuppered at Scapa Flow - it turns out they can be processed much easier than producing new steel which is affected by minute levels of radioactivity that still exists in the atmosphere after the nuclear tests in the 1950s and 1960s (and this affects the delicate instruments).
     
  14. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    My understanding is that all of the pots and pans handed in for aircraft production were useless. The aluminium was such a low grade it couldn't be used. But the psychological value of feeling 'you've done your bit' was useful for an island under siege.
     
  15. southern geordie

    southern geordie Junior Member

    How well I remember when,as a child venting my curiosity, I watched the workmen as they started at one end of our terraced street, early in the war. They used blow torches and removed all of the decorative iron reailings from one end of the street to the other. As far as I am aware, that activity must have been via an enforcement order, otherwise it could be expected that some railings would have escaped the cull. I find it difficult to believe that it was all done purely for purposes of propaganda or to engender feelings of public participation and/or morale. It was a huge undertaking, which would have drawn many essential engineers away from vital work of the emergent rearmament establishments. That work, at the very time when key workers were being directed into 'war work' or mobilisation into the services.. In our small North-Eastern town, we also lost our bronze cannon from the park. In wartime there is a call for all manner of scrap for all sorts of war equipment (not only for guns). However I joined up in the RAF in 1948. and I recall seeing a mountain of scrap metal (that looked like railings) outside a large iron works when travelling as a passeger on a train. I suppose my observations place me as being on the fence, by way of opinion. However, by perpetrating such a deliberate policy was surely counter-productive and nothing short of sabotage. That consept was considered to be a heinious crime throughout the war. I just thought that I would like to throw in a few contrary notions.
     
  16. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Some great underwater ww2 detritus here.
    Particularly the Shermans loaded for transport.



    That's an M42 Duster. How did that get there?
    Shermans here
    Sherman Tanks
     
  18. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    That's an M42 Duster. How did that get there?
    Shermans here
    Sherman Tanks


    According to the Jordanian Tourist Board site:

    "This American M40 Anti-aircraft tracked vehicle, originally in employ of the Jordanian Army was scuttled as an artificial reef on September 1st 1999 by the Jordanian Royal Ecological Diving Society and has since accumulated a lot of marine life. It is now a popular snorkelling and diving attraction."

    I think the M42 has been mis-assigned!! ;)
     
  19. pacifist100

    pacifist100 Junior Member

    Same my way, very few railings survive. i have an official photo of a pile of pans and kettles at Home, i'll post it up tonight if I remember.

    The idea was to involve everyone, no matter how small a contribution, and if it helped a housewife to give up one of her cooking pans, then so be it. And yes, they were dumped in the solent, and also in the channel. i understand many of the aluminium pots and pans went that way as well as the aluminium was not a high enough grade for aircraft manufacture.
    One thing that has always got on my wick (High horse coming up) was all of the cannons. Cast bronze cannons that had been captured at Sebastopol and the like were aken away to be melted down for their bronze content. Congleton lost a very beautiful example that was captured at Sebastopol. it used to stand in the park in pride of place, but after much resistance the Council eventually had to give it up. do you know where it is, along with all of it's brethren taken from other towns and cities around the country? You guessed it, BOTTOM OF THE RUDDY CHANNEL! :Cartangry:
    Wasn't there something about this in the World at War series in the 1970s? I think there was stuff about Beaverbrook's campaign, maybe it mentioned that the metal was mostly unusable... Anyone see that bit?

    Also, does anyone have any idea when it became public knowledge? The earliest reference I can find is from the 1970s... How did people not know about it at the time?
     
  20. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Official Secrets Act?
     

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