Has anyone got any info on Halifax HX336 and MZ 733 both crashed in or Near Papenburg

Hello i am trying to research these 2 Halifax Crashes, the first one being Halifax 111 HX336 HD-M of RAF 466 Squadron that crashed near Papenburg on the 16/2/44.
The other being Halifax MZ733 ZA-Y of RAF 10 Squadron that also crashed near Papenburg, on the 13/8/44.

The reason being i have received a Gibson Girl Relic from one of these 2 Halifax's, the only information that came with the relic is that the Aircraft had Crashed in or near Papenburg, as always i try my hardest to keep the history with any relic i receive, as it is a always Great shame if lost through time.
I have searched the internet and tried different avenues with no real success, so if anyone can help with any information at all, i would be very Grateful.
Regards Brad.

 

Hi Brad, hope the following helps.

15-16 February 1944

466 Squadron
Halifax III HX336 HD-M
Op. Berlin

Took off from Leconfield at 1706 hrs. The aircraft was abandoned in the vicinity of Papenburg, due to engine failure brought about by malfunctioning overflow pumps

Crew.

F/L. J D. Cairns RAAF pow
Sgt. G E O. Haggard pow
P/O. P. Shine RAAF pow
F/S. W N. Wiffen pow
F/S. C. Rigby RAAF pow
F/S. J W. French RAAF pow
W/O. A C H. Oliver RAAF pow.

Souece - RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol.5 - W R. Chorley

 

basic details of both a/c can be found in CHORLEY 'LOSSES 1944'

as far as MZ773 is concerned CHORLEY includes details of a picture of this a/c (by JOHN RAYSON) for the 1994 Christmas Card selection .

 

12-13 August 1944

10 Squadron
Halifax III MZ773 ZA-Y
Op. Brunswick

Took off from Melbourne at 2128 hrs. Outbound and shortly after crossing the German coast at 18,000 feet it is believed the crew fell victim to fire from another Halifax which set fire to the outer port engine and No.4 fuel tank. The aircraft was abandoned and left to crash at 0010 hrs at Vollenerfehn, 3 km north of Papenburg.

Crew.

F/O. J. Saynor pow
Sgt. S. Milton pow
P/O. D D. Smallbone pow
F/S. H G. James pow
P/O. S. Jackson pow
Sgt. N. Brown pow
Sgt. M. Gilbert pow

The crew were engaged on their 38th sortie and were within hours of being screened.

Source - RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol.5 - W R. Chorley

 

With the RAAF crew members from 466SQN it is possible to get further info and then use that to check for files at the National Archives of Australia (NAA).

I have added the details below, but in short the only file digitised for reading on-line is the personnel file for W/O. A C H. Oliver RAAF - however, it is chock-full of good info as it consists of 155 pages. There is even a photo of him from when he enlisted.

It has a returned POW report and messages relating to which POW camps he (and some of his crew) were held in.


***********************************************************

Flight Lieutenant Jack Dexter Cairns 403904 RAAF POW – discharged 12 Sep 1945
Sgt. G E O. Haggard POW - 1386867 RAF
Flying Officer Patrick Shine 414847 RAAF POW – discharged 19 Sep 1945
F/S. W N. Wiffen POW - 1337259 RAF
Warrant Officer Claude Rigby 414319 RAAF POW – discharged 20 Sep 1945
Warrant Officer John Webster French 426835 RAAF POW – discharged 23 Oct 1945
Warrant Officer Alfred Charles Henry Oliver 414159 RAAF POW – discharged 19 Sep 1945


*************************************************************

FRENCH, John Webster - (Flight Sergeant); Service Number - 426835; File type - Casualty - Repatriation; Aircraft - Halifax HX336; Place - Papenburg, Germany; Date - 16 February 1945

FRENCH JOHN WEBSTER : Service Number - 426835 : Date of birth - 30 Dec 1922 : Place of birth - CAPETOWN SOUTH AFRICA : Place of enlistment - BRISBANE : Next of Kin - FRENCH JOHN

*************************************************************

OLIVER, Alfred Charles Henry - (Warrant Officer); Service Number - 414159; File type - Casualty - Repatriation; Aircraft - Halifax HX 334; Place - Berlin, Germany; Date - 15 February 1944

OLIVER ALFRED CHARLES HENRY : Service Number - 414159 : Date of birth - 04 Mar 1919 : Place of birth - MACKAY QLD : Place of enlistment - BRISBANE : Next of Kin - OLIVER DAVID

*************************************************************

SHINE, Patrick - (Flying Officer); Service Number - 414847; File type - Casualty - Repatriation; Aircraft - Halifax HX336; Place - Germany; Date - 16 February 1944

Shine, Patrick 414847 [Prisoners of War Trust Fund application]

SHINE PATRICK : Service Number - 414847 : Date of birth - 29 Jan 1914 : Place of birth - BRISBANE QLD : Place of enlistment - BRISBANE : Next of Kin - SHINE MOLLY

SHINE, Patrick : Service Number - AUS 414847 : Rank - Pilot Officer : Date of birth - 29 Jan 1915 : Place of birth - Brisbane QLD : Date of capture - 16 Feb 1944 : Place of capture - GERMANY : Next of kin - SHINE, P

*************************************************************

RIGBY, Claude - (Warrant Officer); Service Number - 414319; File type - Casualty - Repatriation; Aircraft - Halifax III HX336; Place - Papenburg, Germany; Date - 12 February 1944

RIGBY CLAUDE : Service Number - 414319 : Date of birth - 10 Jun 1917 : Place of birth - NORMANTON QLD : Place of enlistment - BRISBANE : Next of Kin - RIGBY FRANCIS

*************************************************************

CAIRNS JACK DEXTER : Service Number - 403904 : Date of birth - 30 Nov 1919 : Place of birth - NEWCASTLE NSW : Place of enlistment - SYDNEY : Next of Kin - CAIRNS J

CAIRNS, Jack D : Service Number - 403904 : Rank - Flight Lieutenant : Date of birth - 30 Nov 1919 : Place of birth - Newcastle NSW : Date of capture - 16 Feb 1944 : Place of capture - Papenburg GERMANY : Next of kin - CAIRNS, Mrs J

CAIRNS, Jack Dexter - (Flying Officer); Service Number - 403904; File type - Casualty - Repatriation; Aircraft - Halifrax III HX336; Place Germany; Date - 15 March 1944

 

Permalink: P00270.027 | Australian War Memorial

Group portrait on Anzac Day of prisoners in Stalag Luft III (Prisoner of War Camp) north compound, Zagan. Many of the men are members of the RAF or RAAF, including 460 Squadron RAAF.

Identified, back row (left to right): Flight Lieutenants Frank Falkenmire, Laurie Simpson, Vaughan, Bob Smith, Karl, Train, Frank Holland, Bill Baggie, Charles Hawke.

Second row from back: Darnell, A Kennedy, Ron Pender, Percy George, Reg Giddey, unidentified, Greenaway, Colin McLeod, Jack Donald.

Third row: Alec Gould, RAF, Condon. Second row: Alan Mulligan, RAF, 403904 Jack Dexter Cairns, 466 Squadron RAAF, McIntosh, Earngy, Woods, Cull, Slater, Wing Commander Larkin, RAF.

Front row: Bill (?Keith) Kloster, Geoff Paterson, Paul Brickhill, Shipley. Paul Brickhill later became the author of 'The Great Escape,' 'The Dambusters,' 'Reach for the Sky' and other books about the Second World War.

 

12-13 August 1944

10 Squadron
Halifax III MZ773 ZA-Y
Op. Brunswick

Took off from Melbourne at 2128 hrs. Outbound and shortly after crossing the German coast at 18,000 feet it is believed the crew fell victim to fire from another Halifax which set fire to the outer port engine and No.4 fuel tank. The aircraft was abandoned and left to crash at 0010 hrs at Vollenerfehn, 3 km north of Papenburg.

Crew.

F/O. J. Saynor pow
Sgt. S. Milton pow
P/O. D D. Smallbone pow
F/S. H G. James pow
P/O. S. Jackson pow
Sgt. N. Brown pow
Sgt. M. Gilbert pow

The crew were engaged on their 38th sortie and were within hours of being screened.

Source - RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol.5 - W R. Chorley

Peter,

Reading between the lines, does this mean that the Halifax was shot down during weapons testing?

Regards
Tom

 

Peter,

Reading between the lines, does this mean that the Halifax was shot down during weapons testing?

Regards
Tom

I don't have the exact details Tom, but I expect this could have been the reason, small caliber tracer was seen fore and aft of the aircraft just prior to its loss.

Regards
Peter

 

Many Thanks for all your time spent on this thread, i will add all this to the research i have gathered so far.

 

Hi. I'm Steve, a new member to the site. It's probably a bit late now for new info but I thought you might like to know that my Grandad, Walter Noel Wiffen was the Bomb Aimer on Halifax HX366 on the night it crashed. If you could let me know any more about the location of crash site I would be really grateful. Thanks. Steve.

 

hello Jims dad

please post anything you have it will be well received

regards
Clive

 

Halifax III HX336 HD-M, 466 Squadron crashed near the small town Voellenerfehn, N of Papenburg
In 1970 the crew visited the former crash site ("Plock’sche Wiese am Patt" - a swampy meadow) on invitation of the city of Papenburg

 

My father Jack Cairns was pilot of HX336. According to records there was a problem with fuel and the crew had to abandon the aircraft. He spent the last year or so of the war in Sagan Poland at Stalag Luft 3. All of the crew survived the bail-out, were captured and all survived the war. There's a group photo on the Australian War Memorial site which I spotted some years ago and identified Dad (name misspelt) and subsequently had the spelling of his name amended. I'll post some more information soon.
Dad passed away on Sunday 13 January 2002 after a short illness aged 82.

 

Welkom to the forum PeterC. I am looking forward to the extra information you will add to this thread. And I am sure other members as well.

 

Hello Peter
welcome to the Forum
please do post any info you have


regards
Clive

 

Hello Peter, welcome to the forum.

Any further details of this loss would be most welcome.

Regards
Peter.

 

I have information that was received by my brother a few years back from a German researcher. It shows the exact location of the crash site of HX336. I will post the information soon.

 

Hello Tom,
My late father M. Gilbert was rear gunner on this aircraft. The aircraft almost certainly fell victim to a 'trigger happy' gunner on another Halifax In fact there was talk on the sqn of this happening previously but not with quite such devastating results.
The crew all survived POW but my father was on one of the 3 forced marches across Germany from Poland beforeb the advancing Russian forces.
I have quite a bit of information on this crew if you are interested although I appreciate this is quite an old post.

 

Coming late to this thread, but to refer to the original post, having a "Gibson Girl" relic?
What is that?
The Gibson Girl seems to have been some type of stylised image pre WW1 and the only WW2 reference I could find was

If that was USAAF issue radio equipment, why would it be associated with Halifax bombers?

 

Originally a German Design - copied by RAF and then given to USAAF who produced their own version.

All cosmetically the same and given the generic name by crews regardless of nationality of use.

Survival radio - Wikipedia

Ross