Italian Victories In Ww2, Are There Any..

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by liba85, Dec 27, 2005.

  1. liba85

    liba85 Junior Member

    my teacher once told as a joke in a history lesson, it went like: What is the shortest book known to man? Answer: Battles that italians won in the second world war, no pages... :) . Is that true?
     
  2. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    I'm curios, was your teacher born that way or are they specially trained in Finland?

    No.9
     
  3. liba85

    liba85 Junior Member

    i dunno about that.. as i said it was a joke.. i was more interested from the italian success in battle, because i know ww2 quite well, at least what i have read from books, but don't know anything from italians and how they managed in battle.. i have read that they had a poor training and leadership. What major victories have they scored? what were the losses in war?
     
  4. Glider

    Glider Senior Member

    I think that the summary is a bit harsh. The Italians were poorly equipped and badly led but when they were had the oppertunity they could do well.

    At sea.
    The Italian pigs or manned torpedos were very effective and bravely undertaken. They sank at least two british Battleships, and a number of cargo, supply ships in Gibraltar.

    One Italian sub in the Atlantic was badly damaged and surfaced taking on three british destroyers in a gunfight, sinking one modern fleet destroyer before going down. It was a fluke shot certainly, but no one would have blamed him for surrendering when he surfaced.

    A number of Italian destroyers / escorts were lost defending convoys against overwhelming odds.

    On Land
    When well equipped they were as good as anyone. The Blackshirt division was well equipped and fought almost to the last man against the allies.

    In the air
    Those units with modern planes such as the Fiat G55 fought well. SM79 units did well despite taking heavy losses.

    Generally it was the senior officers who lacked the ability to give the right orders, or poor performance
    was driven by the equipment. Lets be honest how keen would you be to take on Spits in a CR42? Or Shermans in their dreadful light tanks?
     
  5. jimmy_jack_james

    jimmy_jack_james Junior Member

    (Glider @ Dec 27 2005, 02:43 PM) [post=43685]I think that the summary is a bit harsh. The Italians were poorly equipped and badly led but when they were had the oppertunity they could do well.

    At sea.
    The Italian pigs or manned torpedos were very effective and bravely undertaken. They sank at least two british Battleships, and a number of cargo, supply ships in Gibraltar.

    One Italian sub in the Atlantic was badly damaged and surfaced taking on three british destroyers in a gunfight, sinking one modern fleet destroyer before going down. It was a fluke shot certainly, but no one would have blamed him for surrendering when he surfaced.

    A number of Italian destroyers / escorts were lost defending convoys against overwhelming odds.

    On Land
    When well equipped they were as good as anyone. The Blackshirt division was well equipped and fought almost to the last man against the allies.

    In the air
    Those units with modern planes such as the Fiat G55 fought well. SM79 units did well despite taking heavy losses.

    Generally it was the senior officers who lacked the ability to give the right orders, or poor performance
    was driven by the equipment. Lets be honest how keen would you be to take on Spits in a CR42? Or Shermans in their dreadful light tanks?
    [/b]

    wow you had alot information there. i didn't know anything you posted. thanks
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Don't forget the Italians were on our side in the 1914-18 War and fought well against the Austo-hungarian Army in the Alps and Plains of northern Italy. They also served on the Western Front.
    Don't forget it was their Fascist Government that alined themselves with the Axis.Not popular with the general population.
    Answer me this would you fight for a cause you didn't believe in?
     
  7. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    liba85,
    I hope you'll find this short story of Italian paracadutisti in the second world war interesting:

    It’s a little known fact that Italy pioneered parachuting and the airborne soldier (1st combat jump 1918). By 1938 there were both national and Libyan paratroopers trained at Castel Benito, the first Italian parachute school located near Tripoli. When war broke out in 1940, 3 additional national battalions were formed two of which with the task of training and raising a parachute division by 1942.

    The first paracadutisti to see action were the national and Libyan battalions during "Operation Compass" which were tasked with contesting the British advance in Cyrenaica during the withdrawal of the 10th Army. They successfully accomplished this, helping to slow and then arrest the British thrust into Tripolitania.

    One of the most epic pages of military history, however, according to both British and German accounts, was written by the Folgore Division at El Alamein in North Africa. They had been trained and readied for the occupation of Malta planned for late Spring of 1942. Operation C3 (Italian code name) which was also supposed to see some of the first air-borne troops of this period in history, the (Aviotrasportabile) La Spezia Infantry Division, was cancelled however, when an overbearing Rommel jumped chain of command, asking Hitler to persuade Mussolini to give him carte blanche so that he could push on to the Nile and to glory.

    Unfortunately, on November 3, 1942, the Folgore Div. was essentially destroyed as a large unit after yet another panicked Rommel withdrawal (once again achieved thanks to his disregard for logistics, and the strength of the Commonwealth forces). This caused the rout of the Italo-German Army, during which, Italian and German units who could not be autotransported (mostly the Italian divisions) fell prey, in a slow withdrawal march through the desert, to the pursuing Commonwealth units.

    But before the final days, the Folgore Division was to cover itself in the "against all odds" glory reminiscent of Balaclava, Picket’s Charge, Vittorio Veneto and Omaha Beach:
    Operation Lightfoot launched on October 24, 1942, was designed to break through the supposed "weak" Italian-held southern sector of the Alamein line where the Bologna, Brescia, Folgore and Pavia Divisions anchored the right flank. The British attack began with a devastating artillery barrage, followed by an all out assault by the 7th Armored and 44th Infantry divisions. However, all that was achieved by the Commonwealth at a high cost of life and equipment was a small lodgment, which was soon to be regained. In the following assaults between October 25 and November 4, 1942 units such as the 50th, 7th, 44th divisions, 1st and 2nd Free French and the Royal Hellenic Brigades, supported by artillery and armor, had not broken nor would they break through the southern sector. The Folgore used all the means at their disposal including the tactic of letting the enemy advance into a "cul-de-sac" and then counterattacking from all sides. They also used their 47mm AT guns from enfilade positions and Molotov cocktails to knock out even Matildas and Grants. In the initial British assault alone the Folgore had managed to destroy over 120 armored vehicles, inflicting over 600 casualties.


    In the end, during the Rommel-imposed retreat, the Folgore led several bayonet charges rather than surrender. The Folgore's fate was similar to that of the Bologna Inf.Div. which marched in the desert fifty hours without water, during the withdrawal from Alamein, chose to form a square against armor, holding the enemy off for many hours in the open, before surrendering exhausted and dying from dehydration. This, however, only after having beaten off three different assaults by infantry and armor in three days. Colonel Dall'Olio, commanding the Bologna, surrendered saying, "We are not firing because we haven't the desire but because we have spent every round." In a symbolic act of final defiance no one in the Bologna raised their hands. The Folgore's fate, abandoned by the motorized Germans, was shared by the Bologna, Pavia, Trento, and the Brescia divisions. General Hughes of the 44th Infantry Division offered what was perhaps a simple and fitting eulogy for those truly extraordinary men, "I wish to say that in all my life I have never encountered soldiers like those of the Folgore."

    All that remained of the Folgore was about a small battalion, which fought on in Tunisia and made of Takruna another epic battle. The rest of the division: either casualties or captured in the desert.

    Back on the mainland, a new paratrooper division was created by late 1942: the Nembo Parachute Division formed around the core of the 185th Folgore Regiment, which trained and raised the new division. First demployed in the Spring of 1943 against Yugoslav guerrilla near Gorizia, Italy, they used their commando tactics to completely pacify the area. Following this, in June 1943, the 184th and 183rd regiments were sent to Sardinia where the main Allied landing was expected while the 185th was deployed to Calabria.

    When the Allies landed in Sicily in July 1943, the 185th was dispatched to fight the invaders but it was too late to affect the flood of men and materiel that washed over the island. It's most important task now became that of protecting the withdrawal of the Italo-German forces to the mainland. But once in Calabria there was no rest for the weary, they continued to engage in furious fighting in the Aspromonte massif in order to delay the 8th Army’s advance. The bitterest battle was being fought against Canadian troops right as news of the so-called "armistice" of September 8 reached them. The "armistice" had in fact been conspired by Badoglio's handful of rogue generals who alone knew of the plans to hand Italy over to the enemy.

    The battalions of the Nembo chose sides, according to the personal loyalty of the commanding officer and/or the leadership the men recognized, which was either the King or Mussolini. Most of the 3rd Battalion decided to keep fighting with the Germans as did the 12th, both eventually joining with the 1st Fallschirmjäger Corps deployed around Rome. Other Para units of the Regio Esercito (Royal Army) such as Ciclone and X° Arditi, and para units of the Regia Marina and Aeronautica (Royal Navy and Air Force) such as San Marco’s NPs (Nuotatori Paracadutisti) and ADRA also remained with the Germans "per l’onore d’Italia" (for Italian honor).

    By the time the landing at Anzio was two weeks old (Jan. 1944) a battalion of the Nembo Parachute Group training at Spoleto was rushed to help seal the beach-head, fighting alongside the 4th Fallschirmjäger. Between Jan. and June ‘44 Nembo Battalion won the admiration of their German comrades in the no quarter fighting at Anzio and for the defense of Rome. On May 4, 1945, Nembo was one of the last Italo-German units to surrender. The unit had been part of an overwhelming majority who continued to defend Italy as part of the RSI government. The RSI (Repubblica Sociale Italiana) while dealing with invasion on three fronts and a civil war managed to arm over 800 thousand Italian troops, fighting beside the Germans on all fronts, in and outside Italy, as opposed to the 28 thousand ("co-belligerent" Royal Army troops) which supported the Allies in Italy, mostly in non-combat roles.

    source: http://members.tripod.com/nembo/nembopage.html
     
    stolpi likes this.
  8. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    The Italian Army had two notable successes in the war on offense...the first was the invasion of British Somaliland in late 1940, which drove the British back. The British ultimately regained the ground and conquered East Africa, but the initial drive was a success.

    The second was the charge of the Savoia Cavalry against the Russians in mid-1942, the last great cavalry charge in history, which routed the Soviet defenders.

    Italy's greatest wartime achievements were noted above...the Folgore Division's stand at Alamein and the midget submarine crews. The leader of the "pigs," Count Luigi de la Penne, wound up in the Co-Belligerent Navy, and used his expertise to help clear Naples harbor of mines and wrecked ships. Late in the war, the paperwork for his Medaglio D'Orio for the Alexandria attack caught up with him, and he received the medal from the British Admiral who had commanded (back in 1941) HMS Queen Elizabeth, the ship he had sunk. It was a chivalrous note on which to wrap up de la Penne's career. :)
     
  9. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi,

    Towards the end of the war Italians fighting for the Allies as the Cremona Brigade did well. It so happened my regiment, the North Irish Horse, supported the Brigade in its first action. See:
    http://www.nih.ww2site.com/nih/Articles/17-3-5.html
    If they had been similarly equipped and supported in North Africa their successes may have been more numerous.

    Regards, Gerry
     
  10. liba85

    liba85 Junior Member

    ok, it seems that they were good soldiers if led by an good officers, as every other nation. what were the major drawbacks in italian equpment then, were the like before ww2 stuff mainly and did they upgrade their equipment or training during war. Finns received some Carcano rifles during winter war, but it is said that they were poor rifles. Finns mainly gave them to 2nd line troops, like drivers and arty crews. how did these "pigs" or manned torpedos worked.. they sound like an interesting weapon..

    btw. tahnks for answers..
     
  11. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    (liba85 @ Dec 29 2005, 10:00 AM) [post=43729]ok, it seems that they were good soldiers if led by an good officers, as every other nation. what were the major drawbacks in italian equpment then, were the like before ww2 stuff mainly and did they upgrade their equipment or training during war. Finns received some Carcano rifles during winter war, but it is said that they were poor rifles. Finns mainly gave them to 2nd line troops, like drivers and arty crews. how did these "pigs" or manned torpedos worked.. they sound like an interesting weapon..

    btw. tahnks for answers..
    [/b]

    I wrote articles on both Italian weaponry and the midget submarines for "The Europa Magazine," which is published by Games/Research Design. Issue No. 55 or 56 was on the Italians, I believe. The infantry weapons had a lot of problems. The grenades had a cute trick of going off in the hands of their users. On the other hand, the Berretta pistols were excellent and popular souvenirs. One of the big problems the Italians had was maintenance...with a slack officer corps, there was no insistence that men cleaned their rifles regularly, a laborious but vital task for all soldiers.
     
  12. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    If you really want an understanding of Italy in W.W.II, liba, I would suggest going back to at least 1848 and the Risorgimento which was the beginning of Italy as known today. Their social, political and geographic realities - together with those of their neighbours - will explain their position in Europe, how they sought to improve it, and the rise of fascism and Mussolini.

    Since the unification of Italy they were effectively playing catch-up with European superpowers. They were not only the 'new boys' on the block, but in many respects the 'poor boys' as well. Technology was not so much a problem as money and natural resources. Italy is rich in marble, however, to power industry Italy needed coal not marble, of which they have none. Even today, because the populous disapproves of nuclear powerstations, electricity is both expensive and restricted and mostly bought-in from France and Switzerland. Hard to compete with superpowers when your manufacturing base is dependent on trade relations and balance of payments.

    Re your questions, Italy was poorly placed to upgrade and fully equip it's forces in W.W.II for similar reasons to do the same in W.W.I. One was money, or the lack of it, and two was because much of the military budget and materiel had been expended on fruitless overseas ventures in the years preceding. Before W.W.I it was Ethiopia/Abyssinia and Tripolitania/Cyrenaica (Libya), and before W.W.II Ethiopia/Abyssinia and Spain. For both World Wars, Italy was only really disposed to be neutral.

    Regarding the much criticised Italian officer, the fundamental fault lay in the persistence of the 'old boy's' regime. As used to be the case in other countries, if a family had enough money and was of suitable status and/or 'well connected', commissions were bought. If a suitable family had several sons, it was virtually obligatory for at least one to be in the military. Your family also influenced your advancement as did your competence at 'lounge lizzardry' and perhaps who you married. In other words a requirement for being a 'damn fine officer' need not include leadership by example or prowess on the battlefield. The balance was changing, but during W.W.II the real officer soldier was still battling an outdated system. Unfortunately this practice still hampered senior command, ultimately capped by an inoffensive timid king who was more concerned with being king than any thought of military command. However, this being the case it would be totally disingenuous to tar all Italian officers with this brush. Unfortunately, the notable arouse little interest, despite their actions, because they don't fit into the popular preconceived mould - do they.

    Regarding the "maiale" and the Italian special forces who used them, Decima Flottiglia MAS. Though most noted for its 2 man ‘torpedo’ raids, particularly Gibraltar and Alexandria, as an attack force it dated back to W.W.I with *motor torpedo boats, hence the MAS tag. Motobarca Armata SVAN – Motorboat Armed ‘Societa Veneziana Automobili Navali’, the manufacturers.
    *On 9th December, 1917, at Trieste MAS.9 became the first motor torpedo boat to sink a capital ship - the Austrian battleship Wien.

    In W.W.II under Prince Junio Valerio Borghese the force had midget submarines operating out of La Spezia which were adapted to convey the SLCs ("Siluro a Lenta Corsa" - slow speed destroyer), the two man ‘torpedo’ the operators dubbed "maiale" (pig), a comment on its ease of handling, or rather lack of it.

    Borgese’s exploits were noted by Karl Donitz who had him train German Naval sabotage units. With the Italian armistice in 1943, the force split. Borghese took the name and his followers to join the Salo Republic and was placed under Gen. Wolff’s command, part of the SS. Their complexion changes now and they become heavily involved with brutal land based anti Partisan activities and special operations against Allied land forces. They also established a spy unit in Switzerland working with the German SD. Borghese became a ‘grey’ character, as after the war his trial was, let’s say, ‘influenced’ as he was embroiled within the CIA, who wanted his services?

    As for the other part of the 1943 split, they became the Mariassalto (Marine Assault Unit), and brought a wealth of technology and expertise to the British in terms of miniature submarines, 2 man torpedoes and operational experience. The British developed their own versions, (Chariots and X Craft) and the Italians served with British forces such as the SBS who increasingly sought to develop all specialist talents aquatic.

    There's some info on the Italian maiale at these sites.
    http://www.regiamarina.net/xa_mas/gibraltar/gibraltar_us.htm
    http://www.regiamarina.it/battles.htm

    No.9
     
  13. adamcotton

    adamcotton Senior Member

    I don't know much about the Italians in WW2 - except their poor reputation! - but I saw a History Channel documentary some months ago that highlighted the poor leadership extant throughout the air force. It seems squadrons, for instance, were commanded by officers who did no actual flying, delegating the task of leading the unit in the air to the flight commanders - rather as the RFC operated in the First World War. It also rather disparagingly remarked that the squadron commanders were much concerned about making their uniforms as smart and as elaborate as possible....

    No smoke without fire?
     
  14. mrya

    mrya Junior Member

    This is over-simplified but:

    Despite the fact that the Italians were poorly equipped, poorly trained and lacked morale, under German command they could be an effective fighting machine.
     
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Italian AT Gunners in the desert put up a magnificent defence and gained great respect for their tenacious fighting despite being equipped with obsolete (there's a loaded word) equipment and being 'led' by Popinjays. I always feel a large part of Italy's Jokey reputation for surrendering was down to where they fought their battles, It's a lot easier to be taken prisoner in a Desert, as soon as your water and edibles are cut off what are you going to do? All the Military skill in the world doesnt keep an unsupplied Army fed and watered in 100% arid conditions. You're forced to take water where it can be found and if this means the enemy then so be it. All of the nations fighting in Africa had high numbers of surrenders because of this factor, Italy didn't get much of a chance to prove otherwise in more temperate theatres.
     
  16. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Why was it that, in general, the Italians performed so poorly during WW2?

    They had very tough and professional fighters, like those of the X MAS in the special forces branch, and the Bersaglieri units in the Regio Essercito, and there were instances were Mussolini´s forces fought like the best, the battle of Keren, in East Africa, for example, but tales of battlefield routs are a lot easier to find than those of victories against a worthy opponent.
     
  17. freebird

    freebird Senior Member

    Good question. It was the same with the Italian navy too. It seems that the Italians lost faith in Musso's leadership. And perhaps they were unprepared for desert warfare.
     
  18. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Basically I think FB is right, i dont think there heart was really in it. I think its slightly more than that , moralle seems to vary wildly between units. Training and quality of leaderships never seems to be constant. Equipment was often poor or more accuratley the good equipment was in short supply.

    Its interesting subject, not so clear cut as been made out in victors history.

    Kev
    Kev
     
  19. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The italians heart is never in any warfare, EVER, You can capture them not in hundreds, but thousands. Sensible folk!
    Sapper
     
  20. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    The Italians never suffered from a lack of bravery but a lack of equipment and leadership. Without that the morale suffered and as a consequence they were never considered good fighters in general.
     

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