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The 50 victims of the Great Escape


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#1 The Aviator

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 07:48 AM

Here is the complete list of the 50 airforce officers who were shot on orders of Hitler following "The Great Escape ' from Stalag Luft 111 on the night of the 24th March 1944.

It is interesting to see the different aircraft they were shot down in. It reads like a who's who of the wartime aircraft.

Here are the fifty.

J5233 F/L Henry J Birkland, Canadian, born 16-Aug-17, 72 Sqdn, (shot down 7-Nov-41, Spitfire Vb, W3367), recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 31-Mar-44; murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
61053 F/L E Gordon Brettell DFC, British, born 19-Mar-15, 133 (Eagle) Sqdn (shot down 26-Sep-42, Spitfire IX), recaptured Scheidemuhl, murdered by Bruchardt 29-Mar-44, cremated at Danzig.
43932 F/L Lester G Bull DFC, British, born 7-Nov-16, 109 Sqdn (shot down 5/6-Nov-41, Wellington IC, T2565) recaptured near Reichenburg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by unknown Gestapo, cremated at Brux.
90120 S/L Roger J Bushell, British, born 30-Aug-10, 92 Sqdn (shot down 23-May-40, Spitfire I, N3194) recaptured at Saarbrucken, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Schulz, cremated at Saarbrucken.
39024 F/L Michael J Casey, British, born 19-Feb-18, 57 Sqdn (shot down 16-Oct-39, Blenheim I, L1141), recaptured near Gorlitz, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Gorlitz.
400364 S/L James Catanach DFC, Australian, born 28-Nov-21, 455 Sqdn (crash landed in Norway, 6-Sep-42, Hampden I AT109), recaptured at Flensburg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Post, cremated at Kiel.
413380 F/L Arnold G Christiansen, New Zealander, 26 Sqdn, born 8-Apr-21, PoW 20-Aug-42, recaptured at Flensburg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Post, cremated at Kiel.
122441 F/O Dennis H Cochran, British, born 13-Aug-21, 10 OTU, PoW 9-Nov-42, recaptured at Lorrach, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Priess and Herberg, cremated at Natzweiler.
39305 S/L Ian K P Cross DFC, British, born 4-Apr-18, 103 Sqdn (shot down 12-Feb-42, Wellington IC, Z8714 PM:N), recaptured near Gorlitz, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Gorlitz.
378 Lt Halldor Espelid, Norwegian, born 6-Oct-20, 33 Sqdn, PoW 27-Aug-42, recaptured at Flensburg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Post, cremated at Kiel.
42745 F/L Brian H Evans, British, born 14-Feb-20, 49 Sqdn (shot down 6-Dec-40, Hampden I, P4404 EA:R), recaptured at Halbau; last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
742 Lt Nils Fugelsang, Norwegian, 339 Sqdn, PoW 2-May-43, recaptured at Flensburg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Post, cremated at Kiel.
103275 Lt Johannes S Gouws, South African, born 13-Aug-19, 40 Sqdn SAAF, PoW 9-Apr-42, recaptured at Lindau, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Schneider, cremated at Munich.
45148 F/L William J Grisman, British, born 30-Aug-14, 109 Sqdn, (believed shot down 5/6-Nov-41, Wellington IC, T2565) recaptured near Gorlitz, last seen alive 6-Apr-44; murdered by Lux, cremated at Breslau.
60340 F/L Alastair D M Gunn, British, born 27-Sep-19, 1 PRU, PoW 5-Mar-42, recaptured near Gorlitz, last seen alive 6-Apr-44, murdered by unknown Gestapo, cremated at Breslau.
403281 F/L Albert H Hake, Australian, born 30-Jun-16, 72 Sqdn, PoW 28-Dec-41, recaptured near Gorlitz, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Gorlitz.
50896 F/L Charles P Hall, British, born 25-Jul-18, 1 PRU, PoW 28-Dec-41, recaptured near Sagan, murdered 30-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Liegnitz.
42124 F/L Anthony R H Hayter, British, born 20-May-20, 148 Sqdn, PoW 24-Apr-42, recaptured near Mulhouse, murdered 6-Apr-44 by Schimmel, cremated at Natzweiler.
44177 F/L Edgar S Humphreys, British, born 5-Dec-14, 107 Sqdn (shot down 19-Dec-40, Blenheim IV, T1860), recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Liegnitz.
J10177 F/L Gordon A Kidder, Canadian, born 9-Dec-14, 156 Sqdn (shot down 13/14-Oct-42, Wellington III, BJ775) recaptured near Zlin, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Zacharias and Knippelberg, with drivers Kiowsky and Schwartzer, cremated at Mahrisch Ostrau.
402364 F/L Reginald V Kierath, Australian, born 20-Feb-15, 450 Sqdn, PoW 23-Apr-43, recaptured near Reichenburg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by unknown Gestapo, cremated at Brux.
P0109 Maj Antoni Kiewnarski, Polish, born 26-Jan-1899, 305 Sqdn (shot down 28-Aug-42, Wellington X, Z1245), recaptured at Hirschberg, murdered there 31-Mar-44 by Lux, place of cremation unknown.
39103 S/L Thomas G Kirby-Green, British, born 28-Feb-18, 40 Sqdn (shot down 16/17-Oct-41, Wellington IC, Z8862 BL:B), recaptured near Zlin, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Zacharias and Knippelberg, with drivers Kiowsky and Schwartzer, cremated at Mahrisch Ostrau. Described to me as "a tall, suave aristocrat."
P0243 F/O Wlodzimierz Kolanowski, Polish, born 11-Aug-13, 301 Sqdn (shot down 8-Nov-42, Wellington IV, Z1277 GR:Z), recaptured near Sagan, shot at Liegnitz 31-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Liegnitz.
P0237 F/O Stanislaw Z Krol, Polish, born 22-Mar-16, 74 Sqdn (shot down 2-Jul-41, Spitfire Vb, W3263), recaptured at Oels, shot at Breslau 14-Apr-44 probably by Lux, cremated at Breslau.
J1631 Patrick W Langford, Canadian, born 4-Nov-19, 16 OTU, (shot down 28/29-Jul-42, Wellington IC, R1450) recaptured near Gorlitz, last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
46462 F/L Thomas B Leigh, Australian in RAF, born 11-Feb-19, 76 Sqdn (shot down 5/6-Aug-41, Halifax I, L9516), recaptured in Sagan area; last seen alive 12-Apr-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Breslau.
89375 F/L James L R Long, British, born 21-Feb-15, 9 Sqdn (shot down 27-Mar-41, Wellington IA, R1335 WS:K), recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 12-Apr-44, murdered by Lux; cremated at Breslau.
95691 2/Lt Clement A N McGarr, South African, born 24-Nov-17, 2 Sqdn SAAF, PoW 6-Oct-41, recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 6-Apr-44, murdered by Lux, cremated at Breslau.
J5312 F/L George E McGill, Canadian, born 14-Apr-18, 103 Sqdn. (I was puzzled because I could not tie him up with an aircraft loss. He and 3 others baled out of a damaged Wellington R1192 10/11-Jan-42 over Germany, on an operation to Wilhelmshaven. The Wellington managed to limp back to Elsham Wolds.) Recaptured in Sagan area, last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
89580 F/L Romas Marcinkus, Lithuanian, born 22-Jul-10, 1 Sqdn, recaptured at Scheidemuhl, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Bruchardt, cremated at Danzig.
103586 F/L Harold J Milford, British, born 16-Aug-14, 226 Sqdn, PoW 22-Sep-42, recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 6-Apr-44, murdered by Lux; cremated at Breslau.
P0913 F/O Jerzy Tomasc Mondschein, Polish, born 18-Mar-09, 304 Sqdn (shot down 8-Nov-41, Wellington IC, R1215), recaptured in Reichenburg area, murdered Brux 29-Mar-44 by unknown Gestapo, cremated at Brux.
P0740 F/O Kazimierz Pawluk, Polish, born 1-Jul-06, 305 Sqdn (shot down 29-Mar-42, Wellington II, W5567 SM:M), recaptured at Hirschberg, shot there on 31-Mar-44 by Lux, place of cremation unknown.
87693 F/L Henri A Picard Croix de Guerre, Belgian, born 17-Apr-16, 350 Sqdn, PoW 2-Sep-42, recaptured at Scheidemuhl, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Bruchardt, cremated at Danzig.
402894 F/O John P P Pohe, New Zealander, born 10-Dec-21, 51 Sqdn (shot down 22/23-Sep-41, Halifax II, JN901) recaptured near Gorlitz, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Gorlitz. Also known by his Maori name of Porokoru Patapu.
30649 Sous-Lt Bernard W M Scheidhauer, French, born 28-Aug-21, 131 Sqdn, PoW 18-Nov-42, recaptured at Saarbrucken, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Spann, cremated at Saarbrucken.
213 P/O Sotiris Skanzikas, Greek, born 6-Aug-21, 336 Sqdn, PoW 23-Jul-43, recaptured at Hirschberg, murdered 30-Mar-44 by Lux, place of cremation unknown.
47341 Rupert J Stevens, South African, born 21-Feb-19, 12 Sqdn SAAF, PoW 14-Nov-41, recaptured at Rosenheim, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Schneider; cremated at Munich.
130452 F/O Robert C Stewart, British, born 7-Jul-11, 77 Sqdn (shot down 26/27-Apr-43, Halifax II, DT796) recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
107520 F/L John G Stower, British, born 15-Sep-16, 142 Sqdn (shot down 16/17-Nov-42, Wellington III, BK278, QT:C), recaptured near Reichenberg, murdered 31-Mar-44 by unknown Gestapo; place of cremation unknown.
123026 F/L Denys O Street, British, born 1-Apr-22, 207 Sqdn (shot down 29/30-Mar-43, Lancaster I, EM:O), recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 6-Apr-44, murdered by Lux; cremated at Breslau.
37658 F/L Cyril D Swain, British, born 15-Dec-11, 105 Sqdn (shot down 28-Nov-40, Blenheim IV, T1893), recaptured near Gorlitz, last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
P0375 F/O Pawel Whilem Tobolski, Polish, born 21-Mar-06, 301 Sqdn (shot down 25/26-Jun-42, Wellington IV, GR:A), recaptured at Stettin, shot at Breslau 2-Apr-44 probably by Lux, cremated at Breslau.
82532 F/L Ernst Valenta, Czech, born 25-Oct-12, 311 Sqdn (shot down 6-Feb-41, Wellington IC, L7842 KX:T), recaptured near Gorlitz, last seen alive 31-Mar-44, murdered by Lux and Scharpwinkel; cremated at Liegnitz.
73022 F/L Gilbert W Walenn, British, born 24-Feb-16, 25 OTU, PoW 11-Sep-41, recaptured at Scheidemuhl, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Bruchardt, cremated at Danzig.
J6144 F/L James C Wernham, Canadian, born 15-Jan-17, 405 Sqdn (shot down 8/9-Jun-42, Halifax II, W7708 LQ:H), recaptured at Hirschberg, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Lux, place of cremation unknown.
J7234 F/L George W Wiley, Canadian, born 24-Jan-22, 112 Sqdn, PoW 12-Mar-43, recaptured near Gorlitz, murdered 31-Mar-44 by Lux and Scharpwinkel, cremated at Gorlitz.
40652 S/L John E A Williams DFC, Australian, born 6-May-19, 450 Sqdn, PoW 31-Oct-42, recaptured near Reichenberg, murdered 29-Mar-44 by Lux, cremated at Brux.
106173 F/L John F Williams, British, born 7-Jul-17, 107 Sqdn (shot down 27-Apr-42, Boston III), recaptured near Sagan, last seen alive 6-Apr-44, murdered by unknown Gestapo; cremated at Breslau.

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#2 The Aviator

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 06:13 AM

Interesting post Aviator.
Of further interest are the actual countries that the fifty victims of the reprisal were from.
22 British
6 Canadians
5 Australians
2 New Zealanders
2 Norwegeans
2 South Africans
6 Poles
1 Lithuanian
1 Belgian
1 Frenchman
1 Greek
1 Czech

It gives a perspective as to the actual makeup of the RAF during the war.
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#3 Slipdigit

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 12:29 AM

Interesting flash presentation regarding the tunnel. Nothing new, but interesting to look at.

Tunnel Harry
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Jeff


#4 Jan7

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 07:58 AM

......


Very interesting and complet post, The Aviator!
I'm amazing for your job!



Jan.
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http://www.u-historia.com History of U-Bootwaffe in Spanish

#5 von Poop

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:23 AM

Cut & pasted from here Jan:
Real Great Escape - The Victims
Which has a lot more info on the escape.

Cheers,
Adam.
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#6 stevew

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:26 AM

Adam,

Great link, certainly puts the film into perspective seeing the names of those murdered and those who survived.

Steve
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In memory of 1891923 Sgt Albert George Edward Mount RAFVR, 115 Squadron Bomber Command, whose Lancaster was shot down on 8th June 1944 over Montchauvet, Yvelines.

#7 spidge

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 11:36 AM

I remember telling a business acquaintance who was from California that there were no Americans in the "real" great escape:

"Yes there was, Captain Hilts, The Cooler King, Steve McQueen played him"

Would not have it that there were no Americans in the escape.
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Spidge,


My project is the collection of over 11,400+ RAAF Headstone/Memorial photos located in 70 countries during WW2 and the 360+ from WW1. Can you assist? Do you know someone that can?
-------------------------------------------------------
My Signature photo is the Battalion history of WW2 and the patch of the 2/8th battalion. (Blood & Bandages)
My Avatar is my dad, Gunner Frederick Edwin Swallow "C" Company, 2/8th Battalion, 19th Brigade, 6th Division AIF. Critically wounded on the first attack on Tobruk, January 21st 1941.



 


#8 Harry Ree

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 11:54 AM

Its unfortunate that history is being distorted by the film industry,creates a product which in the end is fiction.

Similarly there was no character as played by Kirk Douglas in the film "The Heroes of Telmark" in the operational team that destroyed the heavy water production at the Norsk Hydro station and the remaining heavy water dispatched to Germany.
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#9 von Poop

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 12:50 PM

I finally watched U571 the other night... well... about half an hour of it before the irritation really took hold :mellow:.
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#10 Gibbo

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 05:22 PM

I notice that the men who were executed split 22 British, 15 other Commonwealth & 13 Continental Europeans. The 3 who successfully escaped were all Continental Europeans. In the film one each from Britain, Australia & Poland got away, although the last 2 were played by American actors, & all those executed were British, at least those with speaking parts. So it's not just the Americans who are over represented in the film.

Whilst no Americans got out of the camp, there were Americans in it. I saw a TV documentary in which survivors returned to Sagan. One of them was an American serving in the RAF. He was one of those who hadn't got out by the time the alarm was sounded.

The bias of U571 is, on the other hand, undefendable. It doesn't even have the defence of being a good film.
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#11 geoff501

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:18 PM

Similarly there was no character as played by Kirk Douglas in the film "The Heroes of Telmark" in the operational team that destroyed the heavy water production at the Norsk Hydro station and the remaining heavy water dispatched to Germany.


Ray Mears put the story right with his 2003 book The Real Heroes of Telemark. (may have also been on TV, but I missed it.)
I believe there was a (1950s ?) Norwegian film on this which featured some of the original Norwegian Resistance members as the actors. Don't think this came out in other languages.
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http://www.hut-six.c.../search39-47.php

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#12 spidge

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:37 PM

I notice that the men who were executed split 22 British, 15 other Commonwealth & 13 Continental Europeans. The 3 who successfully escaped were all Continental Europeans. In the film one each from Britain, Australia & Poland got away, although the last 2 were played by American actors, & all those executed were British, at least those with speaking parts. So it's not just the Americans who are over represented in the film.

Whilst no Americans got out of the camp, there were Americans in it. I saw a TV documentary in which survivors returned to Sagan. One of them was an American serving in the RAF. He was one of those who hadn't got out by the time the alarm was sounded.

The bias of U571 is, on the other hand, undefendable. It doesn't even have the defence of being a good film.


There would have been Americans however they were all moved before the escape.

Steve McQueens character was actually true and the guy was called "Sage"? and apparently did go to the cooler at times with his baseball mitt and ball.
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Spidge,


My project is the collection of over 11,400+ RAAF Headstone/Memorial photos located in 70 countries during WW2 and the 360+ from WW1. Can you assist? Do you know someone that can?
-------------------------------------------------------
My Signature photo is the Battalion history of WW2 and the patch of the 2/8th battalion. (Blood & Bandages)
My Avatar is my dad, Gunner Frederick Edwin Swallow "C" Company, 2/8th Battalion, 19th Brigade, 6th Division AIF. Critically wounded on the first attack on Tobruk, January 21st 1941.



 


#13 WotNoChad?

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 11:26 PM

Ray Mears put the story right with his 2003 book The Real Heroes of Telemark. (may have also been on TV, but I missed it.)


He did indeed make a programme of this, and very good it was too. Sadly it's not available on the BBC website but Julian Pettifer's radio prog from a few years back is;

BBC - Radio 4 - Telemark Heroes

cheers,

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#14 Harry Ree

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 11:43 PM

The best account of this Norwegian operation is by Knut Haukelid in his publication "Skis Against the Atom".He has the right to say "I was there" as he was one of the leaders of the team.
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#15 Trincomalee

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:27 AM

I never really trust my mother's memory - but - she told me the other evening that my father was glad to go and see "Bridge on the River Kwai" because at least they were being remembered and talked about , even if it was nonsense . I suppose that by the time the Japanese POW's got home the war was well and truly over for many people . And he said that when people asked about it he stopped telling them because they couldn't believe it .
I wonder whether many veterans felt that way about all those war films - at least it begins to tell our story ?
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#16 spidge

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 04:07 AM

I think we should be thankful that these movies are being made. If they are close to the truth, well and good however they are commercial enterprises and have to make money.

I bitch about some things and more about others. With the exception of a few blatant errors where history has been inextricably altered by a myriad of unrepentant directors and writers, we have to accept it.

Where Eagles Dare
is possibly my favourite movie however it is fiction.

I like The Battle of the Bulge even though I am aware of errors and know many here who hate it!

I love to read the goof's in these movies and say to myself, "I have seen this movie 20 times and never noticed that"............bloody hell.

If you wish to see real, you purchase the "World at War" series.

Another of my "favourites" is "The Enemy Below" with Curt Jurgens and Robert Mitchum because I enjoy the story line.

"The Cruel Sea"
, "In Which We Serve" with Noel Coward and "San Demetrio London" are classics. They allow me to remember and honour all those who went to sea in war in mostly horrendous conditions to supply our troops and keep the sealanes open.

I look forward to the new "Dambusters" movie and hope it is at least close in depicting the events of those heroic young men as the previous version.

For my part, I hope Australian youngsters, may read more about this daring and courageous raid (after seeing the movie)and take notice of the ages of some of these boys/men.

Who has ever heard of a young Australian, Flight Lieutenant David John Shannon RAAF (DSO)? He had not yet turned 21 when he was seconded to pilot the aircraft AJ-L ED929/G in the first wave with Gibson.

By 1944 he had received a DFC and bars to both and was Squadron Leader of 246sq.
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Spidge,


My project is the collection of over 11,400+ RAAF Headstone/Memorial photos located in 70 countries during WW2 and the 360+ from WW1. Can you assist? Do you know someone that can?
-------------------------------------------------------
My Signature photo is the Battalion history of WW2 and the patch of the 2/8th battalion. (Blood & Bandages)
My Avatar is my dad, Gunner Frederick Edwin Swallow "C" Company, 2/8th Battalion, 19th Brigade, 6th Division AIF. Critically wounded on the first attack on Tobruk, January 21st 1941.



 


#17 Slipdigit

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 04:32 AM

I understand what you are saying, Spidge and well, reluctantly agree with you where the the truly distasteful movies are concerned, at least to a point. When the movie goes to great lengths to make the story more "interesting"* to the masses (like Baffle of the Bulge), I can at least appreciate that it is trying to tell at least part of the story. I guess, by that same standard, Pearl Harbor would be a borderline acceptable movie.
I guess that is where U-571 comes into the discussion and it has been hashed over and over here. It made no pretext to tell The story, just a story. Please understand, I made no effort to see this cinematic extravaganza at the theater. The ones who saw the movie when it was released are similar to denizens in other countries who wouldn't know on whose side anyone even fought on during the war and most likely don't care.

I don't really know what my point was, you talk about and decide for me.

*at least what the movie producers think is more interesting

Oh yeah, my favorite WWII movies are both fiction. Mister Roberts and The Caine Mutiny. Go figure that one out.
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Warmest Regards,
Jeff


#18 von Poop

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 08:29 AM

That's the point, all very well to tell a slightly jazzed up version of a story, or to sell a piece of fiction, or even quality hokum, but there are limits. U571 is so far beyond those limits it actually becomes an insult to the men who achieved the enigma capture and obscures their story rather than casting light on it.
It's initial publicity touted it as a tue story before switching to "9 ordinary men are about to change history" as one of it's taglines... too bloody right.
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#19 spidge

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:34 AM

That's the point, all very well to tell a slightly jazzed up version of a story, or to sell a piece of fiction, or even quality hokum, but there are limits. U571 is so far beyond those limits it actually becomes an insult to the men who achieved the enigma capture and obscures their story rather than casting light on it.
It's initial publicity touted it as a tue story before switching to "9 ordinary men are about to change history" as one of it's taglines... too bloody right.


I didn't mention U-571 on purpose as this is hopefully never going to be dethroned from the #1 position.

This link is quite a good read on the actual story.
U-571, Hitler's Enigma, The Story Behind the Movie,

Jonathon Mostow, directed, wrote the story and was part of the screenplay team on U-571. Apparently the film does not purport to be telling a true story; a notice at the end acknowledges the real-life ships whose crews captured Enigmas.

I see from Imdb that he has commenced pre production of Swiss Family Robinson. Wonder what he could do with that?
U-571 (2000)

The goofs are good if anyone has not read them.
U-571 (2000) - Goofs
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Spidge,


My project is the collection of over 11,400+ RAAF Headstone/Memorial photos located in 70 countries during WW2 and the 360+ from WW1. Can you assist? Do you know someone that can?
-------------------------------------------------------
My Signature photo is the Battalion history of WW2 and the patch of the 2/8th battalion. (Blood & Bandages)
My Avatar is my dad, Gunner Frederick Edwin Swallow "C" Company, 2/8th Battalion, 19th Brigade, 6th Division AIF. Critically wounded on the first attack on Tobruk, January 21st 1941.



 


#20 spidge

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:43 AM

Oh yeah, my favorite WWII movies are both fiction. Mister Roberts and The Caine Mutiny. Go figure that one out.


Could be a new thread coming up here!
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Spidge,


My project is the collection of over 11,400+ RAAF Headstone/Memorial photos located in 70 countries during WW2 and the 360+ from WW1. Can you assist? Do you know someone that can?
-------------------------------------------------------
My Signature photo is the Battalion history of WW2 and the patch of the 2/8th battalion. (Blood & Bandages)
My Avatar is my dad, Gunner Frederick Edwin Swallow "C" Company, 2/8th Battalion, 19th Brigade, 6th Division AIF. Critically wounded on the first attack on Tobruk, January 21st 1941.



 


#21 von Poop

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:54 AM

I see from Imdb that he has commenced pre production of Swiss Family Robinson. Wonder what he could do with that?

The Alabamian Family Robinson?
Marooned on a desert island where they discover Hitler's diaries, Lord Lucan, and the Marie Celeste's crew...
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Cake?

 

Any questions about life, the Universe and everything else; ask Owen, he loves all that stuff.


#22 spidge

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 10:03 AM

The Alabamian Family Robinson?
Marooned on a desert island where they discover Hitler's diaries, Lord Lucan, and the Marie Celeste's crew...


And that's before they even get their hut built!
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Spidge,


My project is the collection of over 11,400+ RAAF Headstone/Memorial photos located in 70 countries during WW2 and the 360+ from WW1. Can you assist? Do you know someone that can?
-------------------------------------------------------
My Signature photo is the Battalion history of WW2 and the patch of the 2/8th battalion. (Blood & Bandages)
My Avatar is my dad, Gunner Frederick Edwin Swallow "C" Company, 2/8th Battalion, 19th Brigade, 6th Division AIF. Critically wounded on the first attack on Tobruk, January 21st 1941.



 


#23 en830

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:37 PM

Its unfortunate that history is being distorted by the film industry,creates a product which in the end is fiction.


In the case of the film "The Great Escape" the only piece that is total fiction is the motorcycle bit with Mr McQueen.

Admittedly situations and events that weren't directly attributable to the “real” escape, have been re-worked and included in the escape scenes to make the film much more watch-able, however with the exception of the motor cycle stunt the other escape methods, such as the stealing of an aeroplane, stowing away on the ship, walking the Pyrenees etc... Did happen at one point or another during the war.


The other main error in the film is the execution scenes; in the "real" escape the victims were shot in small groups not en-mass.


Gordon Jackson’s mistake by answering in English, happened to Bushell and Scheidhauer at Saarbruken. Scheidhauer, a Frenchman, was fluent in several languages, including German Russian and English. He had been use to using English within the camp and when challenged at a check point in Saarbruken let slip in English to a tragic consequence.


In 1999, I arranged for a memorial to be place to Scheidhauer and the 50 here in Jersey. Scheidhauer crash landed in the island on 18 November 1942.

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Ian

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill 1874-1965

#24 geoff501

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 08:22 PM

U571 is so far beyond those limits it actually becomes an insult to the men who achieved the enigma capture and obscures their story rather than casting light on it.


They (US Navy) had their chance on 14th April 1942, but messed it up.
Thereafter another 8 months of shipping losses, before the capture on U-559 in the Med.

Google for U-85.

geoff
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The WW2 Commonwealth Casualty Search Engine:
http://www.hut-six.c.../search39-47.php

"Well, the most important thing that was new was the idea of URI -- or URL. The idea that any piece of information anywhere should have an identifier, which will not only identify it, but allow you to get hold of it. That idea was the basic clue to the universality of the Web. That was the only thing I insisted upon." Tim Berners-Lee.





#25 Slipdigit

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:17 PM

That's the point, all very well to tell a slightly jazzed up version of a story, or to sell a piece of fiction, or even quality hokum, but there are limits. U571 is so far beyond those limits it actually becomes an insult to the men who achieved the enigma capture and obscures their story rather than casting light on it.
It's initial publicity touted it as a tue story before switching to "9 ordinary men are about to change history" as one of it's taglines... too bloody right.


Okay sounds good. That can be my point.:huh:

Could be a new thread coming up here!


And presto....it appears:p

The Alabamian Family Robinson?
Marooned on a desert island where they discover Hitler's diaries, Lord Lucan, and the Marie Celeste's crew...


Lookout now, Adam, remember, we can have guns, lots of them. Only problem is there are more guys with guns between here and there and that could present some problems.
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Warmest Regards,
Jeff


#26 NickFenton

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 04:01 PM

Ian,

You are quite right, the motor bike scene was something that was added by Steve McQueen based on his interest of motor bikes and his friendship with one of the stuntmen.

My Father would not watch it but he did say that he remembered the individuals involved. What he did comment on was the near mayhem when the deaths were announced accross the other camps which was well depicted in the film and has been covered by many books since.

Nick
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#27 the_historian

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 04:47 PM

BBC NEWS | England | Shropshire | 'Great Escape' war veteran dies :poppy:
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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
http://www.thehistoryvault.co.uk

#28 Harry Ree

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 06:09 PM

In the case of the film "The Great Escape" the only piece that is total fiction is the motorcycle bit with Mr McQueen.

Admittedly situations and events that weren't directly attributable to the “real” escape, have been re-worked and included in the escape scenes to make the film much more watch-able, however with the exception of the motor cycle stunt the other escape methods, such as the stealing of an aeroplane, stowing away on the ship, walking the Pyrenees etc... Did happen at one point or another during the war.<O:p
<O:p</O:p

The other main error in the film is the execution scenes; in the "real" escape the victims were shot in small groups not en-mass.

<O:p</O:p
Gordon Jackson’s mistake by answering in English, happened to Bushell and Scheidhauer at Saarbruken. Scheidhauer, a Frenchman, was fluent in several languages, including German Russian and English. He had been use to using English within the camp and when challenged at a check point in Saarbruken let slip in English to a tragic consequence.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p
In 1999, I arranged for a memorial to be place to Scheidhauer and the 50 here in Jersey</ST1:p. Scheidhauer crash landed in the island on 18 November 1942.
<O:p</O:p


The motor bike scene was at the behest of Steve McQueen who obviously had some sway in script deviation from reality.

The introduction of escape methods not used on the actual breakout does introduce fiction from the record of true events.There were many escape ruses that could have also be introduced to enhance audience entertainment but equally would have not enhanced accuracy of the events.

The escape via the Pyrennes route was accurate (Dutchman. Robert van der Stok) and as was the escape to Sweden via the Swedish owned merchant ship (Norwegians. Per Bergsland and Jens Muller)

The command of a continental language remanied a key to the route to liberty.Robert van der Stok preferred to travel alone as he thought his security would have been threatened by travelling with a non continental language speaker.No doubt his knowledge of German, French and his native Dutch was such that he could overcome suspicion in interview.However he did not witness a Resistance assassination as shown in the film.

The Norwegians would be comfortable with the Swedish and Danish languages and as many Scandinavians would be conversant in German.

The escapers who were less than fluent in any contenental languages were obviously at risk in formal interviews or informal exchanges.It was not uncommon for escapers to be caught out with informal exchanges.There was also another language trap and that was being awoke and mistakingly answering in one's mother tongue.This was always a possibility of those on the run or on clandestine service.

The murders were carried out in small groups by delegated Gestapo offices,(I think there was 8 offices traced ) in one or two cars capacity but there were many whose place of murder could not be ascertained but the region was ascertained by the crematorium name stamped on their urns.

There was at least one ex POW in the film and that was F/O Donald Pleasence (Wireless Operator) who was downed in a Lancaster of No 166 Squadron operating out of Kirmington on a raid to Agenville on 31 August 1944.Pleasence was an inmate of Stalag 1 at Barth on the Baltic.

Pleasing to hear of the Memorial erected in Jersey
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#29 en830

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:38 PM

Not sure why all those smilies appeared in my post, I apologise.

Sad to hear of Jimmy James' passing, a true gentleman. I exchanged a number of letters with him a few years ago.
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Ian

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill 1874-1965

#30 von Poop

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 09:32 PM

It'll be some aspect of the punctuation being picked up by vbulletin as smilies EN830.

Eg.
; & ) comes out as ;)
: & D as :D
etc.

Sorry 'bout that. Good reason to always check a preview of a post before sending it out.

Cheers,
Adam.
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Cake?

 

Any questions about life, the Universe and everything else; ask Owen, he loves all that stuff.





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