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Civilians killed and wounded in London - test finished


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#1 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:13 PM

Just finished transcribing the massive list of all civilian casualties from air raids, and rocket attacks on London.

The list contains details of injuries sustained, and from which hospital it was recorded.

If killed, it states which mortuary the deceased was taken to.

The address is usually the home address, though sometimes it is the location of where the bomb fell.

There are a few military casualties mentioned, but not many.

i want to trial the database, before it goes 'live.' So I can search by street name. Let me know what you are looking for.....

I have mortuary records, and detailed bomb incidents from Finsbury and Islington, too.

Anyone interested?
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#2 Drew5233

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:16 PM

Joan Newson - My Auntie.
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#3 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

Joan Newson (aged 15) was treated for a badly bruised leg at Woolwich War Memorial Hospital. Her address was stated as 31 Holbeach Road, SE6. Date reported (though there was always a delay) was November 1944 - so the event probably took place in late October. I can give an accurate date, but have to match it with a known casualty. This takes time, but I am willing to do it, if you need that info.

Queenie Woodward, aged 17, from number 27 Holbeach Road was treated for a serious back injury in St John's Hospital SE13 at the same time.
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#4 Drew5233

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:31 PM

I was under the impression she went to Farborough (sp) Hospital with a near lower leg amputation-It was certainly more than bruised as her scare would testify. She was in M and S in Lewisham at the time working on the till when the V-1 struck the air raid shelter near Woolworths.

Pete - Any reason why you put Quennie Woodward up? I only ask as Woodward became Joan's married name.
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#5 Deacs

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

Hi Pete,

Have a look for this lady please

JEAN SOMERVILLE BENSON

Michael.
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:poppy: SAPPER ALBERT DEACON 3605477. 80 Assault Squadron Royal Engineers- 14/9/1919.-29/12/2009 :poppy:.

:poppy: DRIVER ROBERT WILLIAM JOHNSTON T/168241.R.A.S.C- 1/8/1917.-9/12/1989 :poppy:.

#6 Drew5233

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:34 PM

One last one for you. Engleheart Road, Catford SE6. I used to live on this road and quite a few houses were destroyed in the Blitz and a chap from the council was awarded a GM for saving some residents on the road.

I'm not sure if there were any casualties on the road but I'd be interested to know if there were etc.
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#7 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:07 PM

Apart from the info on the CWGC Jean Benson was taken to Warner Street Mortuary WC1. Finsbury records show her body was received at 14.15 hours on the 18th of the month (and that she was found, along with a number of other fatalities) at number 51 Great Percy Street (contrary to the CWGC info). Her body was identified by a friend, Mrs Lilian Cortesi. Her home address is the same as the CWGC. Her body was disposed at 11.30hrs on the 24th April. Next to this entry is the name 'Robinson (Cumberland)' which I take to be the undertaker....??

I may have more info on this woman, and certainly have the list of other casualties from this incident, if you need it.
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#8 Deacs

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

Yes please Pete she is remembered in my local cemetery which i am researching more the better

Regards Michael.
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:poppy: SAPPER ALBERT DEACON 3605477. 80 Assault Squadron Royal Engineers- 14/9/1919.-29/12/2009 :poppy:.

:poppy: DRIVER ROBERT WILLIAM JOHNSTON T/168241.R.A.S.C- 1/8/1917.-9/12/1989 :poppy:.

#9 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:21 PM

One last one for you. Engleheart Road, Catford SE6. I used to live on this road and quite a few houses were destroyed in the Blitz and a chap from the council was awarded a GM for saving some residents on the road.

I'm not sure if there were any casualties on the road but I'd be interested to know if there were etc.


Frank Farmer - Abrasions (Number 138)
Edith Parrish - scalp wound (no 138)
George Durrant - dead (no 138)
Annie Durrant - dead (no 138)
Minnie Sturman - Hysteria (number 95)
Elsie Moseley - Dead (number 140)
Peter Moseley - dead (number 140)
John W Moseley - minor injuries (no 140)
Robert Moseley - dead (number 140)
John Smith - facial injuries (no 90)
Albert E Cooke - facial injuries (no 148)
John George Davies - leg wound (no 36)
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#10 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:30 PM

I was under the impression she went to Farborough (sp) Hospital with a near lower leg amputation-It was certainly more than bruised as her scare would testify. She was in M and S in Lewisham at the time working on the till when the V-1 struck the air raid shelter near Woolworths.

Pete - Any reason why you put Quennie Woodward up? I only ask as Woodward became Joan's married name.


The records were made from the first receiving hospital, as relayed to the Met Police. The wounds are often understated, as many injuries (especially crush wounds) were later ammended to 'later died.' Many patients were transferred to other hospitals.

Woodward was a co-incidence. I just looked for the same street address.

The injured were given a reference number, but the actual date of the incident was not given. But I have found that by cross-referencing the number, with that of someone killed, I can (usually) find the date of incident, and where it took place. The date in which this information was published, was often up to a month or so after the event.

I have all the fire brigade records, for London. So I can then usually work out also the full event of what happened on a particular day.
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#11 Mike L

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:33 PM

Pete, sounds like a fantastic piece of work you have completed there, congratulations. Where do you intend to host it eventually?
Just for reference how do you define 'London'? I live in Hornchurch, which is classified as both Essex and Greater London, being in a London Borough. Would your database cover this area?
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#12 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:37 PM

Yes please Pete she is remembered in my local cemetery which i am researching more the better

Regards Michael.


Mary Kennon, killed, was also indentified by Cortesi. Found at number 51, yet shown as living at number 55. I will look further, to see if there is more.
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#13 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:41 PM

Pete, sounds like a fantastic piece of work you have completed there, congratulations. Where do you intend to host it eventually?
Just for reference how do you define 'London'? I live in Hornchurch, which is classified as both Essex and Greater London, being in a London Borough. Would your database cover this area?


it is basically the area within the M25. So a few bits of home counties come under the area (including Hornchurch).

It will be going on Who Do You Think You Are, and then FindMyPast - along with the London Fire Brigade Records.
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#14 Deacs

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:44 PM

Thanks Pete i look forward to see what you have
By the way where is she buried ?
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:poppy: SAPPER ALBERT DEACON 3605477. 80 Assault Squadron Royal Engineers- 14/9/1919.-29/12/2009 :poppy:.

:poppy: DRIVER ROBERT WILLIAM JOHNSTON T/168241.R.A.S.C- 1/8/1917.-9/12/1989 :poppy:.

#15 Ron Goldstein

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

Anything on Dunsmure Road, Stamford Hill, London, for the night of 9th October 1940 ?


My better half would be most grateful (see below)

The time was 7.45 pm on the 9th of October 1940 and Hitler had evidently decided it was important to his war aims that our lovely Victorian house in Dunsmure Road should be destroyed that night.
Dunsmure Road was a quiet residential turning in North London and we had lived there for the past ten years.
My family consisted of my mother Kate, my brother Gerry and myself, Nita Schneiderman, as I was then known.
The evening had started just like many of the other nights we had experienced since the Blitz started on September the 7th.
We had just finished our evening meal and had not yet gone out to the safety of our Anderson Shelter that was situated in the garden. I can’t actually remember hearing the sound of the bomb that was to completely alter our lives.
My first recollection was finding myself in complete darkness, covered in dust and debris and that the window of the morning room in which we were sitting had been completely blown into the room and was actually resting on the table at which we had been sitting.
This window had been put in by my late father when we first moved into the house in order to create extra light and it is ironic that because of its presence we were eventually able to make our escape from the ruined house.
When I first recovered my wits, I saw my brother moving around and then the three of us managed to clamber out of the window into the garden. From there we went down the few steps into the cellar and then eventually through another door that gave us access to the front of the house.
By this time the Air Raid Wardens had arrived on the scene and helped us to climb over the debris that was in front of the house.
I particularly remember that one of them took my hand and asked me if I was OK and when I said that I was, he squeezed my hand in reassurance. Sixty five years after the event I cannot think of this moment without a lump coming into my throat. Analysing my emotions I suppose that it was at this actual point in our rescue that I realised we had managed to survive this dreadful experience.
The rescue squad took us to an Air Raid Shelter at the nearby flats of Cambridge Court where there was a First Aid Post.
Here we received treatment for our various cuts, caused mainly by the flying glass. I remember that my arms in particular were badly cut as I had automatically put my arms over my head to protect myself from further injury.
The following day we went back to our house to see what, if anything, remained.
We discovered that the house appeared to have received the first impact of the bomb which had sliced it diagonally and destroyed the upper floors. It had then moved on to our neighbours house which was also badly damaged and finally moved on to a third house which it completely flattened.
This last house was home to a family who had always been very nervous about remaining in their house after the air raid warning had sounded.
They had all been in their Anderson Shelter when the bomb hit and all had survived.
By sheer good luck there were no fatalities or serious injuries caused by ‘our’ bomb.
A few days later, the demolition squad called and were able to salvage some of our belongings and I can still remember the sight of our few precious possessions standing in a heap by the roadside, in the rain, where they were to remain for the next few days whilst arrangements were made to put them into store.
It is heartening to remember today that despite those terrible times, none of our belongings were stolen or vandalised.


Many thanks

Ron

Edited by Ron Goldstein, 16 October 2012 - 07:38 AM.
Added London to address

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If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
And if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?
Rabbi Hillel circa 30 BCE


:peepwalla:

 

I was "called-up", as a 19 year old, on the 1st of Oct 1942 and was one of 5 serving brothers, one of whom, Jack, was in RAF Bomber Command and was killed on March 16th 1945.

I served as a Driver/Op (Wireless Operator) with the 49th Light Anti Aircraft Rgt. (78 Div) from Apr 1943 to Dec 1944 (North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Egypt). The Regiment was disbanded in Dec 1944 and I was retrained (in Italy) by the Royal Armoured Corps.

 

Finally, I served as Loader/Op with the 4th Queen's Own Hussars (6th Armd.,78th & 56 Div) from Mar 1945 to Dec 1946 (Italy, Austria, Germany) finishing up as Tech Cpl. for "A" Sqdrn.  I was "De-mobbed" in Apr 1947

http://www.blogger.c...947129038825503


#16 Mike L

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:56 PM

OK Pete, I know you said there are a few service personnel so from Hornchurch ROH can you find anything about these, lived and buried in Hornchurch?
A bit of a tester as you asked, not sure if they died due to bombing or not. Might have died in airfield bombing.
Fentiman, Sgt Pilot Donald Vivian RAFVR
Aircraftwoman L J R Barrett Women's Aux Air Force
and a Civi, George Abraham Griffin.

Edited by Mike L, 15 October 2012 - 11:09 PM.

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#17 ARPCDHG

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:58 PM

Hi Pete
An amazing piece of patient work.
How/where did you get all the source material? Do you think it's complete?
Austin
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:poppy:Thank you to the wartime generation for my and my family's freedom today.

Remembering: my paternal grandfather, Austin Ruddy, Royal Engineers 1929-1940 (invalided at Dunkirk); my maternal grandfather, Frank Leslie Tagg, Hawker Typhoon engine draughtsman for D. Napier & Son Ltd and member of their platoon, 7th (Acton) Battalion, Middlesex Home Guard; great uncle CSM John Oliver Smith of 5th (St Marylebone) Battalion, County of London Home Guard and great uncle Edward Sidney Smith AFS/NFS, 75X Station, Torriano Avenue, Kentish Town, London 1939-1945. :poppy:


#18 Deacs

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:59 PM

Have just looked back on my post on her and Mary Kennon is also remembered
Here is the link to my post on her
http://www.ww2talk.c...html#post461635
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:poppy: SAPPER ALBERT DEACON 3605477. 80 Assault Squadron Royal Engineers- 14/9/1919.-29/12/2009 :poppy:.

:poppy: DRIVER ROBERT WILLIAM JOHNSTON T/168241.R.A.S.C- 1/8/1917.-9/12/1989 :poppy:.

#19 CTNana

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

Pete what an incredible piece of research!

Can you shed any light on the bombing of High Road, Chapel Street, Market Place and Averton Road in East Finchley on 15.11.40 which certainly claimed the life of Alfred Drury who I believe was decorated in WW1.

The CWGC lists a dozen fatalities but, knowing the area and the close proximity of the houses, there must have been many more injured (unless of course the devastation was caused by more than one raid that I haven't identified).

Thanks
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For my Dad especially but for all of those who served in our name.

You can shed tears that he is gone
Or you can smile because he has lived.
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#20 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:10 PM

OK Pete, I know you said there are a few service personnel so from Hornchurch ROH can you find anything about this chap, lived and buried in Hornchurch?
A bit of a tester as you asked, not sure if he died due to bombing or not.
Fentiman, Sgt Pilot Donald Vivian RAFVR


Okay, here is how I can usually (!!) work out if a serviceman was killed in a raid.

In my experience, nearly all raid casualties had their death registered at around the same time.

So go to FreeBMD and look up your man. Click on the reference page, and it will list the people who died on the same day in that area. Now go to CWGC and search for the other people on the same page as your man - hey presto, you will find the incident.
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#21 Mike L

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

Sorry Pete, I have editted post to add a female and a civi to test the database.
Not trying to catch you out, just trying to find any limitations of the information.
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#22 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:15 PM

Anything on Dunsmure Road for the night of 9th October 1940 ?


My better half would be most grateful (see below)



Many thanks

Ron


Hi Ron, only those hospitalised were listed. I can find no casualties reported as such.

I will have a look, tomorrow, to see what the Fire Briagde Records show.

Lewis Cohen was treated for shock, at Number 41, but this was much later on in the war.

Sorry

Pete
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#23 Pete Wood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:59 PM

Thanks Pete i look forward to see what you have
By the way where is she buried ?


This was the question I feared most.

You are not going to like this.

All of the local authorities maintained meticulous records about where the victims of the raids were buried. They then passed this onto the Imperial War Graves Commission (now CWGC).

But (!!) the IWGC Committee decided NOT to publish the details of which cemetery they were buried in (unlike the service casualties).

Sadly, because of a shortage of space, the IWGC destroyed all but a handful of these burial records. I know, I have been to the CWGC and seen the remnants (which sadly, I am not allowed to publish, due to a contract I had to sign with the CWGC).

All is not lost, though. Many of the local authorities still retain the burial locations. Also, when the IWGC was recording the mass of civilian deaths, the original (!!) Book of Remembrance, housed in Westminster Abbey, DID record the burial location - hand written, up until around 1944. When the definitive Book of Rememberance was eventually printed, the burial locations were not included.

The original hand written Book of Rememberance is now held by the CWGC. So any of the early casualties, and their burial location, still survives. But, the CWGC refused to let me see this book - as it is one of the documents which it plans to release once its archive is made public.

I offered to transcribe the burial locations, but this offer was turned down. By all means approach the CWGC and see if they will do a look-up, but I doubt you will get access.....
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#24 Mike L

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:13 AM

Extraordianary story! Apart from lack of space do you think there might be another reason why many of these records were not kept?
Are you saying that the ONLY copies of the local authority records were passed to IWGC and the LA did not keep a copy?
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#25 Pete Wood

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:19 AM

Extraordianary story! Apart from lack of space do you think there might be another reason why many of these records were not kept?
Are you saying that the ONLY copies of the local authority records were passed to IWGC and the LA did not keep a copy?


Yep, Space was one issue - data protection, another reason (which is why I had to sign the confidentiality clause). Madness. I even managed to trace the printers (still in existence) that handled the printing of the Abbey's book of remembrance. It has a good archive, but was forced to return the handwritten copies, containing the burial locations, to the IWGC in the early 50's.

Most of the local authorities did NOT keep copies - because they believed that the originals were 'safe' with the IWGC. A tragic blunder.
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#26 Mike L

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:24 AM

You have got me thinking now Pete. I have a copy of Hornchurch ROH (service and civilian, WW1 and 2) copied, as far as I know, from LB Havering's copy. I am now wondering if it includes ALL known casualties or just the ones with recorded graves. Could that be the case in your experience?
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#27 Ron Goldstein

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:57 AM

Pete

Thanks for trying anyway !

While I have your ear, another query.

The house where I was born, 21 Boreham Street, Bethnal Green E2, was destroyed by bombing between 1942 & 1945, thereby denying me the opportunity of seeing a plaque there saying "Ron used to live here". :)

Any chance of finding out when it actually got hit ?

Thanks again and lots of luck with your very worthy project.

Ron
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If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
And if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?
Rabbi Hillel circa 30 BCE


:peepwalla:

 

I was "called-up", as a 19 year old, on the 1st of Oct 1942 and was one of 5 serving brothers, one of whom, Jack, was in RAF Bomber Command and was killed on March 16th 1945.

I served as a Driver/Op (Wireless Operator) with the 49th Light Anti Aircraft Rgt. (78 Div) from Apr 1943 to Dec 1944 (North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Egypt). The Regiment was disbanded in Dec 1944 and I was retrained (in Italy) by the Royal Armoured Corps.

 

Finally, I served as Loader/Op with the 4th Queen's Own Hussars (6th Armd.,78th & 56 Div) from Mar 1945 to Dec 1946 (Italy, Austria, Germany) finishing up as Tech Cpl. for "A" Sqdrn.  I was "De-mobbed" in Apr 1947

http://www.blogger.c...947129038825503


#28 Drew5233

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:24 AM

Many thanks Pete...Looks like you have developed a rather good resource tool :)
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#29 geoff501

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:56 AM

Pete,

Excellent work, well done indeed.

geoff
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The WW2 Commonwealth Casualty Search Engine:
http://www.hut-six.c.../search39-47.php

"Well, the most important thing that was new was the idea of URI -- or URL. The idea that any piece of information anywhere should have an identifier, which will not only identify it, but allow you to get hold of it. That idea was the basic clue to the universality of the Web. That was the only thing I insisted upon." Tim Berners-Lee.





#30 idler

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:17 AM

Pete,

It certainly sounds like an amazing piece of work.

May I ask if it has any information for Willow Grove and the Hassells thereof? Haven't got the date to hand but I believe it was a mine in early 1941.

Andrew
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